Kimmie Messiner article

chuckm · Jun 20, 2006

Mao hasn't done a 3A2L so far in her GP performances. Her FS last season (for the most part) consisted of 3A, 3F, 3Z, 2A, 3L2L2L, 3F2L and 3Z2L. No 3T, no 3S. She has said she was going to do 3A in combination and solo 3A in her FS at Japanese Nationals, but I don't have the protocol for that performance, and AFAIK, she wasn't able to do what she planned.

At JW, Mao had been failing to land the 3A multiple times during practices. She hit all her jumps in the QR, but in the FS she singled her 3A attempt, did only 3F1L, and singled the 3Z.

Skye · Jun 20, 2006

chuckm said:
Mao hasn't done a 3A2L so far in her GP performances. Her FS last season (for the most part) consisted of 3A, 3F, 3Z, 2A, 3L2L2L, 3F2L and 3Z2L. No 3T, no 3S. She has said she was going to do 3A in combination and solo 3A in her FS at Japanese Nationals, but I don't have the protocol for that performance, and AFAIK, she wasn't able to do what she planned.

At JW, Mao had been failing to land the 3A multiple times during practices. She hit all her jumps in the QR, but in the FS she singled her 3A attempt, did only 3F1L, and singled the 3Z.

http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2005-2006/Figure/national/E/index.htm

At the Japanese Finals last year, Mao attempted a 3A+2T, but it was downgraded to a 3A+1T. (again due to the toe-axel, which is why she tried the 3A+2L at the Junior Worlds) I've heard that she's recently been working on her toes and salchows with Rafael Arutunian

evenstar · Jun 20, 2006

All the ladies have to have a double axel in their programs, which kills a 7 triple free program without a triple-triple and 5 different triples in their repertoire.

Mathman · Jun 20, 2006

evenstar said:
All the ladies have to have a double axel in their programs, which kills a 7 triple free program without a triple-triple and 5 different triples in their repertoire.

No, no, that's the whole point. The ladies have to do an Axel jump with two or more revolutions. So if you have a tripel Axel, you don't have to waste one of your jumping passes on a 2A.

So in principle you could do all six triples solo, then repeat one in combination with 2T or 2Lo, and get in 7 triples without a 3/3. Is that right?

lisadotdash · Jun 20, 2006

Red Dog said:
At least publically she does. Maybe in her mind or when the cameras are off she's like, "I'm the best ever!" or "This is a must win for me!" I'm not fooled by PC comments

Yeah 'cause remember her facial expression at the Olympics. No telling what kitty-cat little cusswords were swirling around her head. I think she's going to be as well-coached on interviews as her performance. I think Yamaguchi could have used a little bit of that.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 20, 2006

Yeah. You can do so many variations on the rules in the SP, but which skater, particularly the Ladies will take that risk???

Joe

evenstar · Jun 20, 2006

Bah, I'm confused! I thought the double axel was mandatory. If it's not, I wonder why Mao didn't do a 7 triple performance?:think:

Mathman · Jun 20, 2006

I'm a little bit confused, too. But according to the post by Inloveagain above, I think she did plan a seven triple program at both Japanese Nationals and Junior Worlds, but she just couldn't deliver it.

R.D. · Jun 20, 2006

antmanb said:
I don't think Arakawa is a good comparison in this case because, firstly she had been on the scene for many many years when she won her world title, it wasn't her first attempt. Secondly, it was very widely publicised that hse wanted to take the medal and run after 2004 worlds but her federation forced her to stay in. She had lost her motivation and the 9th place finish at Worlds was not unexpected given ehr training and motivation issues.

I think Kimmie should be compared more to Kwan or Slutskaya in the last few years - i think it will be fully expected for her to be on the worlds podium again but it'll be case of whether she can defend her gold - both Kwan and Slutskaya have strugled to defned the title and i don't think any les of thme for that.

Ant

You might be right. But as you said, even Kwan and company have had struggles after their world championship wins, so IMO it's a bit unrealistic to expect that the same thing won't happen to Kimmie.

attyfan · Jun 20, 2006

Red Dog said:
You might be right. But as you said, even Kwan and company have had struggles after their world championship wins, so IMO it's a bit unrealistic to expect that the same thing won't happen to Kimmie.

It also depends on what you consider to be "a struggle". MK, for example, had what they called the "alternate year jinx", where, with the exception of '00 and '01, she medaled, but didn't win gold every other year. IS had years where she didn't medal, even though her heart wasn't a problem ('97 and failing to make the team in '99) Mao Asada, for example, has been described as "struggling" because she "only won silver" at Junior worlds.

dancindiva03 · Jun 20, 2006

MKFSfan said:
True, especially when you figure in how she did not do well with pressure at Jr. Worlds after a silver in 2004 and a bronze + 3axle at Nationals 2005. You just never know! This may have been her one chance to win Worlds and she nailed it with a fantastic LP, so nothing to be ashamed of. OR she could just be getting started!

I don't know if you can necessarily say that it was pressure that did her in at Jr. Worlds in 2005. It was the end of the season, one in which she competed in both junior and senior events. It is difficult having to back and forth training and competiting two different programs (yes I know they are essentially the same, but different lengths and probably slightly different content based on requirements for different levels). Plus, remember how much she grew? Its quite common to have some problems adjusting to that. I know she now has a title to live up to, but I don't think Kimmie is the type to let pressure really affect her to the point it has other skaters (no names but I'm sure you all can think of one or two).

R.D. · Jun 20, 2006

but I don't think Kimmie is the type to let pressure really affect her to the point it has other skaters

same here, but we don't really know yet. But I wonder if an off-performance by her would be blamed on pressure or just "having an off night".

MKFSfan · Jun 20, 2006

Red Dog said:
same here, but we don't really know yet. But I wonder if an off-performance by her would be blamed on pressure or just "having an off night".

I agree. I was just giving two different possible scenrios-using Jr. Worlds '05 to show maybe she succumbed to pressure. I mean, what with bronze at Nationals, the whole Sr. Worlds invite thing, and all the press she got for landing a 3axle, she could have been under a lot of pressure. OR, as was pointed out, she could have been exhausted and ready for the season to be over. In a way, I can see how last season may have been "longer" in some ways than this season for Kimmie. Maybe that's what happened with Mao this year: perhaps by Jr. Worlds, after a successful Sr. debute and all the craziness that followed her around, she was just ready for the season to be done (even though she was officially done competing after Japanese Nationals). I hope we see alot more of the Kimmie from 2006 Worlds in the coming seasons!

R.D. · Jun 21, 2006

yeah. But that's a lot to ask of any skater. It seems rare for a skater to deliver stunner after stunner out there as if she were a machine or something.

MKFSfan · Jun 21, 2006

Red Dog said:
yeah. But that's a lot to ask of any skater. It seems rare for a skater to deliver stunner after stunner out there as if she were a machine or something.

No, not saying she needs to deliver stunner after stunner. My take on Kimmie at Worlds was she put it all out there, everything she was capable of at that competition, seized the moment, reveled in the moment and was rewarded for such. I hope we can see more performaces like that from Kimmie, but that doesn't mean I think she has to duplicate that specific quality of skate at every Cheesefest, COI stop, GP event and major competitions.

Take a look at some of the successful careers of skaters who have more than one great performance. I realize Michelle is one of a kind, but Irina, Tara, Fumie, Shiz, have all had more than just one good performance when it counts to prove they were not just a "one hit wonder". That's all I meant.

R.D. · Jun 21, 2006

The "best" skaters do typically have more than one "great" performance in their career. But what I'm saying is that I think the typical top 6 skater will usually have that one great performance that will define them and others that are "average" or "good". Maybe a skater wil shock everyone one night only to struggle with pressure or expectations or fatigue in the future (I think of SH here). Also, a great skater steps up at the right occasion (say Worlds rather than Skate Canada) IMO.

Mathman · Jun 21, 2006

Alissa

stepped up at Skate Canada, seized the day, crushed the opposition and secured her place among the legends of the sport. :rock:

Today, Skate Canada -- tomorrow, the world!

antmanb · Jun 22, 2006

evenstar said:
Bah, I'm confused! I thought the double axel was mandatory. If it's not, I wonder why Mao didn't do a 7 triple performance?:think:

The double axel in mandatory in the SP for ladies and in the LP an "axel type jump" is mandatory. I don't think it says of higher than a double, therefore a single axel is acceptable. There is no sanction other than the last jump you do not coutning if you haven't don'e an axel type jump.

Ant

antmanb · Jun 22, 2006

Red Dog said:
You might be right. But as you said, even Kwan and company have had struggles after their world championship wins, so IMO it's a bit unrealistic to expect that the same thing won't happen to Kimmie.

In the ladies the pattern seems to have been its difficult to defend the title, in the Mens it seems like a pattern to defned several times over...maybe Kimmie will come out with the determination of a Pluschenko /Yagudin/Lambiel?

She seemed to pitch last season just right to peak perfectly in time for worlds, if i were her i'd stick to the same training plan and see what happens.

Ant

Mathman · Jun 22, 2006

antmanb said:
The double axel in mandatory in the SP for ladies and in the LP an "axel type jump" is mandatory. I don't think it says of higher than a double, therefore a single axel is acceptable. There is no sanction other than the last jump you do not coutning if you haven't don'e an axel type jump.

Thanks for clearing that up. If more ladies start including a triple Axel in their repertoire, I wonder if they will change the SP rules to allow a triple or double Axel, like the men.

Very interesting that a single Axel is permitted as the "Axel jump" in the LP. As I have been learning on the "flutz" thread, the CoP is trying to be consistent in not penalizing a later element for a mistake on an earlier one. If you single your double Axel attempt you get a "deduction" of 2.5 points (0.8 instead of 3.3), but they don't in addition take away credit for your last jump (say, an additional 5.0 for a Salchow in the second half of the program).

Otherwise, you would lose more points (a total of 7.5 points in this scenario) than the element is worth in the first palce (3.3).

Believe it or not, the ISU has actually put some thought into its rules.

Kimmie Messiner article

chuckm

Skye

evenstar

Mathman

lisadotdash

Joesitz (RIP)

evenstar

Mathman

R.D.

attyfan

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dancindiva03

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R.D.

MKFSfan

R.D.

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R.D.

Mathman

antmanb

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