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Thread: CoP Olympic report card

  1. #31
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz

    I do have a life although it may not seem that way. One thing is for sure, I am at fault for being overly protective of Lambiel, and it appears to me, that some people are out to get him
    Seriously though, i don't get the impression that MM dislikes Lambiel. I get the impression that MM likes the CoP (hey being a maths fanatic i can see why!). The Lambiel downgrade problem at worlds i went into at great length on the post entitled Lambiel wuz robbed of personal best so i don't want to go on even more about it but suffice to say i think we both agreed that something was fishy on the basis that many of the panel gave him +GOE for the jump and suposedly an underotated jump in addition to being underotated carried mandatory -GOEs depending on the severity of the undorrotation which means that a lot of panel saw a good (+GOE worth of good) triple axel...nuff said!


    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    I can't help but go along with Chuckum's proposal and allow the Caller to call a jump a flutz when he sees it, and then let the judges score what they want with it.
    This way, lutz by definitiion will be maintained. How bad would it be to give credit to skaters who follow the definition?

    Joe
    I wouldn't be averse to putting the flutz in the table of values but where would it go in terms of difficulty? More than aflip but less than a lutz? arguably its a jump based on bad technique...should it be less than a double axel?

    What if its placed between a flip and lutz in terms of difficulty? Would that encrouage skaters to fill their skatnig passes with lutzes flutzes and flips and leave the lesser triples out?

    Ant

  2. #32
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    If there's a value for a flutz, then there has to be one for a lip (a flip switching to an outside edge) as well. Lots of skaters who do proper lutzes lip their flips.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Have to admit, I am not one for the rules, but from what I read, there is absolutely no mention of flutz in the rules. I may be wrong but maybe hockeyfan or gkelly can show me where it is mentioned.
    "Flutz" and "Lip" are figure skating board terms. Where this is mentioned in the rules is "Starting on the wrong edge" and, more specifically, "Short change of edge in take-off of flip or Lutz," etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    I wanted to do a lutz, but I did a flip by mistake
    Your personal definition of a lutz is based on take-off edge, but for three years, that has not been the definition in the rules, which takes into account several other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    This way, lutz by definitiion will be maintained.
    The definition of the lutz is maintained, because it included several factors including take-off edge.

    There are mandatory deductions for changing the take-off edge. Unlike in 6.0, where BTW, neither Sarah Hughes nor Lipinski in her second year nor Fumie Suguri were charged with violating the Zayak rules for their flutzes, nor Arakawa, Sebestyen, and Sokolova were charged with violating the Zayak rules for their lips.

    Quote Originally Posted by joesitz
    How bad would it be to give credit to skaters who follow the definition?
    They are the ones who get full credit for a correct take-off edge and don't get mandatory -1 to -3 deductions.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 06-20-2006 at 11:13 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    but suffice to say i think we both agreed that something was fishy on the basis that many of the panel gave him +GOE for the jump and suposedly an underotated jump in addition to being underotated carried mandatory -GOEs depending on the severity of the undorrotation which means that a lot of panel saw a good (+GOE worth of good) triple axel...nuff said!
    As Mathman has already written, only three of the judges gave Lambiel +1 GOE, and the rest of the 12 gave him 0 or -1. Since an underrotation gets -1 to -3 depending on severity, it is also perfectly plausible that three of the judges saw a +2 GOE axel jump, from which they deducted -1 to net out to the final score of +1.

  5. #35
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Let's get away from this girly sport.
    Joe, I think cheating on the take-off edge of a Lutz jump is pretty far down the list of why many people regard figure skating as a "girly" sport.

    It is so regarded because of the second mark. Figure skating, like it or not (and I do!) is half athletic contest and half performance art.

    There was a funny interview on Sunday with Dirk Nowitzky, star player with the Dallas Mavericks basketball team. He said that while he was growing up his father wouldn't let him play basketball because it was a "women's sport."

    So Dirk grew up playing the manly sport of handball instead. (Herr Nowitzky was a champion handballer, while Dirk's mother and sister played pro basketball in the European leagues.)

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman

    It is so regarded because of the second mark. Figure skating, like it or not (and I do!) is half athletic contest and half performance art.

    And what is wrong with a mostly girl associated sport to anyone who might say such a thing anyway. Ask them to get on a spinner and then just try jumping with 1 rotation on the ground, then do one of their favorite dance moves (that mind you is likely unattractive) then they will see! Girls rock just as hard as guys

    Hopefully this is on topic -

    I hope it doesn't shift away from "artistic" because of the importance of the "blessed numbers." I think I am being a little too pesimistic - odd for me - but this issue does seem to be coming up once and a while.

    What is the CoP (man I would love a terms & abbreviations list) doing to ENSURE THIS DOESN"T HAPPEN?
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 06-20-2006 at 05:38 PM.

  7. #37
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    Seriously though, i don't get the impression that MM dislikes Lambiel. I get the impression that MM likes the CoP (hey being a maths fanatic i can see why!). The Lambiel downgrade problem at worlds i went into at great length on the post entitled Lambiel wuz robbed of personal best so i don't want to go on even more about it but suffice to say i think we both agreed that something was fishy on the basis that many of the panel gave him +GOE for the jump and suposedly an underotated jump in addition to being underotated carried mandatory -GOEs depending on the severity of the undorrotation which means that a lot of panel saw a good (+GOE worth of good) triple axel...nuff said!
    MM and I both enjoy the nipicks during the summer doldrums. Keeps the Board moving towards Campbells. It so happend that Lambiel got the prize this summer. I do believe that the CoP has given new life to Mathman which is tough enough on him because Michelle whether injured or not was never known as a spinner. However, there were gasps and huge applause for Stephane in Calgary when he landed the 3A. While I don't trust TV we will get a chance to see it again. I would love to hear from someone who has not really made up his mind about it including me.




    I wouldn't be averse to putting the flutz in the table of values but where would it go in terms of difficulty? More than aflip but less than a lutz? arguably its a jump based on bad technique...should it be less than a double axel? Ant
    There are legitimate definitions of what a lutz and flip are. No need to go into the entry. The lutz is a jump which takes off on a back outside edge, and the flip is a jump that takes off on a back inside edge. Any entry into those jumps that do not follow those simple RULES is pure adulteration of the RULES.

    I'm not against the rock over into the attempted lutz, but it is the Caller's business to announce that that was what happened. It should be, imo, an automatic deduction of say, 2 points minimum which will give the judges who want to cheat a chance to give +3 goes for his interests. Honest judges would just give it what appears to be a very poor flip or -2 minimum. The total deduction would be -4, not bad on honesty.

    As for many people (whoever they are) not worried about the difference between a lutz and a flip probably never figure skated in their lives. Figure skaters work hard to perfect their elements. I wouldn't give them a cheap 'who cares'.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 06-20-2006 at 06:03 PM.

  8. #38
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    I'm not against the rock over into the attempted lutz, but it is the Caller's business to announce that that was what happened.
    Are you sure that's what you want, Joe? That puts even more power into the caller's hands (and less in the judges') than he already has.

    As it is, it is up to the judges to judge what they saw. Was there an improper take-off edge? Was there a hand down on the landing? Was it two-footed? All of these things require a deduction on the part of the judges. Would it really improve matters to take this judgement out of the hands of the judges and give it to the caller?

    Can't we trust the judges to see the difference between an inside and an outside edge, and to follow the ISU rules about how to score it?
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-20-2006 at 07:26 PM.

  9. #39
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    I do believe that the CoP has given new life to Mathman...
    You nailed me on that one, Joe. Michelle may have ridden off into the sunset, but at least I have all those lovely numbers to console me.

  10. #40
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    Except that an attempted lutz coming from the right direction/curve as a lutz with the right opposition as the lutz and the wrong take-off edge isn't a flip, either. It isn't a defined jump, and therefore can't violate the Zayak rule.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Hockeyfan, you know I love you dearly but when you go for a lutz, the entrance is from a back outside edge. That's what the entrance to a lutz is!!

    Your case is for an attempt at a back outside edge. If the skater can't hold a back outside edge, the skater should not be in Seniors. More than JMO.

    Joe

  12. #42
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    But Joe, every sport has to have rules or it's not a sport at all. The ISU rules about how to penalize a faulty take-off edge are perfectly clear, and should be followed by the judges.

    You may want to change the rules. For instance, you might want baseball to change the rules and allow only two strikes instead of three. You might say, anyone who can't hit the ball in two strikes doesn't belong in major league baseball. Well, maybe MLB will take up this suggestion one day.

    Then again, they might not. And the ISU might not follow your proposal to ignore everything else -- the entry curve, the counterrotation, etc. But right now the rules say, no, we are not going to ignore all that. We are not going to change the rules and johnny-one-note this element.

    IMO what we need is not new rules but rather to enforce the rules we have. As Hockeyfan mentioned previously, the problem is that the judges are not deducting properly for a faulty edge. According to the rules, that is supposed to be a deduction of 1 to 3 points, depending on the severity. I think if skaters found themselves actually penalized in this way, they would work a little harder to clean up their attack on this jump.

    If the skaters knew for a certainty that they were going to get only 3 or 4 points for a flutz (as the current rules state), instead of 6 for a Lutz, that would be incentive to clean up their act.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-21-2006 at 07:19 AM.

  13. #43
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    MM - You are now becoming a protector of the Flutz

    Every sport has rules and defintiions. Do you know the definitiion of a Touchdown? a Double Play? a Knockout? a Triple Gaynor? A Double Fault? Missing a Slalom gate - even though there was an attempt to not miss it. duh.

    A Lutz is a jump in figure skating when a skater who is on a back outside edge toes off with his free leg; does an appropriate air turn(s) and lands on the other foot on a back outside edge. I didn't make this up. This is the rule for a Lutz.

    Now, an attempted Lutz is another matter. Can you imagine credit for an attempted Touchdown?; and attemped Double Play?; an attempted Knockout?; an attemped Triple Gaynor? Yes, the attempt is there, but if it doesn't succeed then there is no credit. Now is figure skating a girlie sport?

    Joe

  14. #44
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Yes, figure skating is a girly sport. Viva la femmes!

    I have been reading up on this, and here's one girl who agrees with you -- Nancy Kerrigan. In her book Artistry of Ice she has a whole chapter on how to do a Lutz. She concludes:

    "As I mentioned before, the most common error in the Lutz comes from rocking over on the blade before the jump. This actually turns the jump into a flip because you are on the inside edge, and the judges are required to deduct for the mistake. The rules dictate that you do two of each jump, and one has to be in combination. So if you do two flips and two Lutzes, but your Lutzes are flips, you should be marked down."

    She goes on to give tips on how to approach the jump (position of the arms, location of the toe pick, etc.) that will help you stay on the outside edge.

    "We still see people do flutzes even at the Olympic level, which indicates how difficult this jump is, but it is a mistake, and you should work to land them correctly."

    Well, it's hard to argue with that. I guess you and Nancy have won me over.

  15. #45
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    The problem in the current system is that the caller rates the flutz as a full-credit lutz and the judges ignore the flutzing and the skater gets a 0---in my eyes that is full credit for a poorly executed jump. That's why I say the caller should say the jump is a FLUTZ with a lower base value.

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