No more QR at Worlds, Euros | Page 2 | Golden Skate

No more QR at Worlds, Euros

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The Qualis did give the contestants a dress rehearsal of the LP. Hockeyfan's suggestion is good and I would add the results be used to seed the SP, then thrown out.

Regarding the Anonymity of the Judges Here's the paragraph:

Single and Pair Skating and Ice Dance
On the third day of the 51st Ordinary ISU Congress in Budapest (HUN) delegates reiterated their support for the ISU Judging system and confirmed their approval of maintaining the anonymity of Judges as well as the system of a random draw of the Judges scores which count towards the result. The system has allowed officials to work in an independent manner, while the anonymity of the Judges for major ISU Events has ensured objectivity as evaluating bodies are not informed of the identity of the Judge under review until an Assessment (official warning) has been confirmed.


They seem to be praising their system. Anyway, what does it mean: "while the anonymity of the Judges for major ISU Events has ensured objectivity as evaluating bodies are not informed of the identity of the Judge under review until an Assessment (official warning) has been confirmed."

Does it mean that if there is a complaint, a team of evaluators will review the case which will name names, and give its assessment of the complaint but not for outside ears?

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman - The big question with the 2002 Pairs question is still who was Didier working with? You can't have a collusion with only one person. Who? Who? Who?

Joe
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
SeaniBu said:
Sounds like an average work day to me. I would rather do that than organize meetings and classes for snippy CEO, coworkers and Customers for 9.
A judge has to keep a full concentration, noticing every little detail. I know every person is different, but I can maintain concentration like that for only a couple of hours.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Joesitz said:
Mathman - The big question with the 2002 Pairs question is still who was Didier working with? You can't have a collusion with only one person. Who? Who? Who?

Joe
The ISU outsmarted us on that one, Joe. Didier was never formally charged with colluding or conspiring. He was only charged with exercising undue influence over a judge.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Joesitz said:
Does it mean that if there is a complaint, a team of evaluators will review the case which will name names, and give its assessment of the complaint but not for outside ears?
No, it means that the evaluators will not know the identity of the judge that they are passing judgment on until after they have made an official determination that the judge deserves a reprimand or other penalty.

If the judge then wants to appeal (using videotapes to prove that he was right and the majority of the panel was wrong, for instance), then at that point a subcommittee of the Assessment Committee is chosen to hear the appeal, and then the name of the person becomes known at least to the subcommittee (after all, at that point he is right there standing before you, pleading his case, LOL.)

As to the general public ever being told anything, I'm not holding my breath. :laugh:

Here are the details of the procedure:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168605-185823-91843-0-file,00.pdf
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About the idea of having a qualifying portion that is strictly for qualifying, IIRC this has been tried in various forms in the past.

The problem is that the top skaters just went through the motions, knowing they wouldn't be 20th no matter what they did. This made that stage of the competition unwatchable from the point of view of the audience.

Unless you were the mother of the 21st skater fighting for that last spot, why would you come and watch?

I believe that the whole point of allowing the qualifying points to carry over was to insure that the top skaters would at least try to give a crowd-worthy performance.

Again, money. The ISU is feeling the pinch. It seems like they just can't afford to put on shows that offer nothing to the audience.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
The ISU outsmarted us on that one, Joe. Didier was never formally charged with colluding or conspiring. He was only charged with exercising undue influence over a judge.
It would have taken a big load off LeGougne if the co-conspirator had been named. To read these posts again, it seems the whole thing was LeGougne. Oh well, life is full of scapegoates.

Joe
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Mathman said:
About the idea of having a qualifying portion that is strictly for qualifying, IIRC this has been tried in various forms in the past.
The problem is that the top skaters just went through the motions, knowing they wouldn't be 20th no matter what they did. This made that stage of the competition unwatchable from the point of view of the audience.

I agree, the solution is not make the top skaters skate in the qualifying round. For example, a skater who finished in the top 16 in the previous two years (or is seeded in the top 16 or so) don't have to skate the qualifying round (they get an automatic bye into the short program). All skaters appearing for the first time have to go through the qualifying round.

This gives you far fewer skaters and they all (or almost all) have to put more effort into it (using the short program would make it even faster). Noi, it's not a ratings winner, but it's a qualifying round not the main contest and nobody's been televising the qualifying round for years anyway.

I also think they should use a seeding system for the SP if there's not going to be a QR so you don't have all the top skaters in the first two flights and an agonizing marathon of splatting in the final three rounds, but even though the ISU has a ranking system, apparently they're bound and determined not to use it for anything.

I'm happy that the QR in the form of the ungainly, unfair, exhausting ordeal it had morphed into is history, I'm not sure if 40 randomized skaters for the SP is a good idea though... My prediction: assembly line judging for the lesser known skaters, during whose programs the judges will pay less attention so they can focus on the skaters more likely to do well.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Mafke said:
I'm happy that the QR in the form of the ungainly, unfair, exhausting ordeal it had morphed into is history, I'm not sure if 40 randomized skaters for the SP is a good idea though... My prediction: assembly line judging for the lesser known skaters, during whose programs the judges will pay less attention so they can focus on the skaters more likely to do well.

That sounds allot like what they do on the show So You Think You Can Dance. Interesting.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
It would have taken a big load off LeGougne if the co-conspirator had been named. To read these posts again, it seems the whole thing was LeGougne. Oh well, life is full of scapegoates.

Joe

I would have thought logically the co-conspirator would have to have been the russian judge in the Olympic Free Dance since in order to swap votes a deal done between the Russians and French the Russians would have had to uphold there side of the bargain and the only one able to do that would have been the judge on the day ... its the other countries/judges/federations who were in on it as well that we can make assumptions about, but i guess we will never *know*

Ant
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
antmanb said:
I would have thought logically the co-conspirator would have to have been the russian judge in the Olympic Free Dance since in order to swap votes a deal done between the Russians and French the Russians would have had to uphold there side of the bargain and the only one able to do that would have been the judge on the day ... its the other countries/judges/federations who were in on it as well that we can make assumptions about, but i guess we will never *know*.
The Russian judge voted for Lobecheva and Averbukh over Anassina and Peiserat.

("With these evil folk we never know when they are in league and when they are cheating one another." -- Aragorn, son of Arathorn, speaking of the Orcs. :laugh: )
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
The ISU outsmarted us on that one, Joe. Didier was never formally charged with colluding or conspiring. He was only charged with exercising undue influence over a judge.
Then there is no point in discussing this anymore than we have for the past 4 plus years.

The French Federation decided to place the Russian Pairs team ahead of the Canadian Pairs team in exchange for the French Dance team being placed ahead of the Russian Dance team. I think that would have required another Federation to ensure that a judge would give the French Dance team a first placement to complete this deal. At that point, the ISU investigation into finding out the counterpart to this scam stopped with a decision to award 2 gold medals.

I don't know how anyone can not say there was no collusion here unless they were trained to believe in 'and they lived happily ever after' stories. The Powers that be are always correct. hmm. So this whole fiasco was the fault of the French Federation and Mme Le Gougne in particular. Nothing else was involved.
Yeah, that's what happened. :scratch:

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Okami said:
I like the change intoduced by ISU better. At first I felt kind of sad, as one of my favourite performances of the last season happens to be a QR performance. Looking at the bright side however, if there had been no QR, perhaps the skaters would have been able to preserve strenght (both physical and mental :laugh: ) and perform at their best in the LP. ;)
One of my favorite Cohn performances was the QR in Dortmund. Clean as a whistle and with the proper bravura of a swan queen. Someone should get that on video.

I don't think strength has much to do with the LP as having the Will to Win.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
The Russian judge voted for Lobecheva and Averbukh over Anassina and Peiserat.
With the full blast of the LeGougne case going on before the Dance competition, it is easily understood that any prior deal was off.

Joe
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Mathman said:
The Russian judge voted for Lobecheva and Averbukh over Anassina and Peiserat.

("With these evil folk we never know when they are in league and when they are cheating one another." -- Aragorn, son of Arathorn, speaking of the Orcs. :laugh: )

But by the time of the FD the media was so switched on the fact a deal had been struck that the russians would have hanged themselves if that had voted for the french...

Ant
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I always thought the QR was rather redundant. I also feel it puts extra stress on the skaters. Instead they need to bring back figures or find something else to replace the QR. This is great news! Thanks.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Ladskater said:
I always thought the QR was rather redundant. I also feel it puts extra stress on the skaters. Instead they need to bring back figures or find something else to replace the QR. This is great news! Thanks.
Are you prepared to watch 45 Short Programs which count in points for the gold medal? If Buttle skates first in the SP and Weir skates forty-fifth in the SP, which skater will be remembered more? What happens if Buttle is placed in the third group to skate the LP?

Although I did not like the use of two separate judging panels because points are very subjective, the QR offered some sort of seeding for the SP which in turn offered seeding for the LP.

Without the QR, I think some sort of seeding will be needed for the SP.

Joe
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ladskater said:
I always thought the QR was rather redundant. I also feel it puts extra stress on the skaters. Instead they need to bring back figures or find something else to replace the QR.

If they found something else to replace it, would it be something that would then be required for all senior-level competitions, whether there were 4 skaters entered or 40? Or would it be something that only gets used at Worlds?

Either way, it would reduce the burden on the skaters during the actual week of Worlds but increase the burden on training during the rest of the year.
 

dwiggin3

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
hockeyfan228 said:
Bummer. I loved quali rounds at Euros and Worlds. I was hoping that the change would be either auto-byes for top skaters or full qualis, with the scores wiped out after the field was narrowed.

Oh, hadn't thougth about this option...hmm... Having seen worlds when it was in DC, I had a chance to watch most of the QR's and I must say, it was rather a let down when it came to the top, say 15 ladies - the ladies you all expected to make it. The only only time the QR's seemed like it was being skated as a "real compitition" was for hte skaters who were in jeopardy of not making the cut.

I guess I felt a bit jipped since it was clear so many of the top skaters treated it like a runthrough. I would have preferred to have watched them practice.

On the flip side, I would NOT want to be a judge and have to watch 43 short programs.
d
 
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