No more QR at Worlds, Euros

chuckm · Jun 29, 2006

If there were no QRs at this past Worlds, the results would have been:

1 Brian JOUBERT (2)
2 Stephane LAMBIEL (1)
3 Emanuel SANDHU (5)
4 Evan LYSACEK (3)
5 Nobunari ODA (4)
6 Jeffrey BUTTLE (6)
7 Johnny WEIR (7)
8 Alban PREAUBERT (8)
9 Chengjiang LI (9)
10 Matthew SAVOIE (11)

1 Kimmie MEISSNER (1)
2 Sasha COHEN (3)
3 Fumie SUGURI (2)
4 Elena SOKOLOVA (4)
5 Sarah MEIER (6)
6 Yukari NAKANO (5)
7 Joannie ROCHETTE (7)
8 Emily HUGHES (8)
9 Susanna PÖYKIÖ (9)
10 Kiira KORPI (10)

R.D. · Jun 29, 2006

of course, that's assuming a lot there. Interesting list, though.

chuckm · Jun 29, 2006

Yes, it is assuming that Sandhu would have skated well in both SP and FS. He bombed the QR, so he skated well later. Eman's usual pattern is to bomb the SP and try to make up for it in the FS.

What is interesting is that Sasha, who skated virtually identical QR and FS, finishes up higher than she would with the QR removed. Meanwhile, Suguri, who skated well in all 3 segments, and Sokolova who skated well in the SP and FS, wind up behind Sasha. It just goes to show how horribly overmarked Sasha's FS was.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 29, 2006

chuckm said:
If there were no QRs at this past Worlds, the results would have been

Chuckum - Not alltogether sure what thos nos. in parenthesis represent. I don't remember Kimmie being 1st after the SP, if that is what the nos in parens represent.

It probaly worked for Joubert who got the edge on Lambiel's 3A. Points, points, points and they are close all round the board.

Joe

hockeyfan228 · Jun 29, 2006

Mathman said:
The Russian judge voted for Lobecheva and Averbukh over Anassina and Peiserat.

("With these evil folk we never know when they are in league and when they are cheating one another." -- Aragorn, son of Arathorn, speaking of the Orcs. )

The judge from Russia, Sheshtakova, voted 1-2 for Anissina/Peizerat and Lobacheva/Averbukh in both CD's and the OD. The judges were nearly unanimous on A/P for those phases. Since the LeGougne story broke before the FD, it would have been suicide for the Russian judge to have voted for A/P, because this would have confirmed collusion, unless nearly the entire panel voted the same way.

Also, it was the judge from France who spilled her guts. Usually when one side blows a deal, the other side feels neither obliged nor condusive to fulfilling its end of the bargain.

LeGougne victimized B/S. If I were Sheshtakova, and it were remotely close in the FD -- which I think it was -- I would have flipped the bird to A/P in response.

Mathman · Jun 29, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Also, it was the judge from France who spilled her guts. Usually when one side blows a deal, the other side feels neither obliged nor condusive to fulfilling its end of the bargain.

She broke the cardinal ISU rule: cheat as much as you want, just don't get caught.

Later Madame Le Gougne claimed that, no, it was the Canadian officials that had been pressuring her, ever since the judging panel was announced in October, to vote for their pairs team. (Did the Canadian judge vote for Anassina and Peiserat?)

gkelly · Jun 29, 2006

Mathman said:
Later Madame Le Gougne claimed that, no, it was the Canadian officials that had been pressuring her, ever since the judging panel was announced in October, to vote for their pairs team. (Did the Canadian judge vote for Anassina and Peiserat?)

There was no Canadian judge on the dance panels.

chuckm · Jun 29, 2006

Joesitz said:
Chuckum - Not alltogether sure what thos nos. in parenthesis represent. I don't remember Kimmie being 1st after the SP, if that is what the nos in parens represent.

It probaly worked for Joubert who got the edge on Lambiel's 3A. Points, points, points and they are close all round the board.

Joe

The numbers in parens were where the skaters actually placed at Worlds 2006. For example, Savoie would have been 10th without the QR, but he actually placed 11th.

Too bad they didn't institute this rule sooner. Kwan would have medaled in 2005 if there hadn't been a QR.

Lanie · Jun 30, 2006

chuckm said:
What is interesting is that Sasha, who skated virtually identical QR and FS, finishes up higher than she would with the QR removed. Meanwhile, Suguri, who skated well in all 3 segments, and Sokolova who skated well in the SP and FS, wind up behind Sasha. It just goes to show how horribly overmarked Sasha's FS was.

Nah, more like Sasha had level 3s, 4s and +GOE up the wazoo. Suguri and Sokolova--especially Elena, who's generally rather messy out there--didn't.

God, I sound like a broken record. Haha.

R.D. · Jun 30, 2006

Too bad they didn't institute this rule sooner. Kwan would have medaled in 2005 if there hadn't been a QR.

Broken record...ONE COULD NOT KNOW THIS FOR SURE. How would have she done the SP without the QR? How is one's mindset affected? It'll be sort of interesting to see what happens now that this is in effect.

antmanb · Jun 30, 2006

Lanie said:
Nah, more like Sasha had level 3s, 4s and +GOE up the wazoo. Suguri and Sokolova--especially Elena, who's generally rather messy out there--didn't.

God, I sound like a broken record. Haha.

In theory at least, the levels you can't argue with because you have to jump through certain hoops to get the level. But the GOE can and certainyl is overmarked by the judges - its subjective - how else can you explain that some judges give some elements -1 and other giv the same elements +1 or even +2 in some cases...and the PCS is same old same old - i do think Sasha was serisouly overmarked in the PCS at worlds.

Ant

antmanb · Jun 30, 2006

Red Dog said:
Broken record...ONE COULD NOT KNOW THIS FOR SURE. How would have she done the SP without the QR? How is one's mindset affected? It'll be sort of interesting to see what happens now that this is in effect.

You can't know anything for sure unless it has happened and is in the past...does it stop us discussing what might happen and making assumptions? I hope not otherwise this board would die a horrible death...look at all the speculation about next season!!

Ant

R.D. · Jun 30, 2006

Well, I certainly agree...speculation is running rampant...but it seems that I'm not interested enough any more to make predictions this early...but then again, come to think of it, I never really did, anyway.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2006

I'd like to save the QR because it does get much of the jitters out of the contestants. It's the first time on the ice in front of an audience and judges. As I said it is like a Dress Rehearsal.

If it is a question of saving time, they are going to run overtime with so many doing the Short Program, and as far as I can see it'll be by draw without any seeding. Not good, imo, for the top tier.

My suggestion would be to keep the QR but instead of using the Long Program, they could use the Short which would move more quickly and save some time, if indeed, time is the problem.

IMO, Something has to be done to prevent Buttle skating in the first group to skate and Weir in the last group to skate for the Short Program. There needs to be some sort of seeding without the QR.

If they use a formula such as Last Worlds Results plus ISU Standings, etc. that would help to get skaters in the last groups, and I do say groups because, only six to a group leaving 4 of the top ten Worlds will be in the penutimate group.

I presume this has already been thought out.

Joe

chuckm · Jun 30, 2006

The problem is they are going to use the ISU World Rankings to seed the skaters for the SP. Considering how unrealistic those rankings are, there are bound to be many injustices. Think about this: what if a top skater (say, Lambiel) was forced to take this coming season off in order to have more surgery on his knees. Not competing this season would drop him like a stone in the rankings and he would be skating several flights away from the contenders at Worlds 2008. Same thing if Plushy decided to come back in 2009 as preparation for an attempt to defend his OGM.

Meanwhile, skaters who sit low in the ISU rankings and who come from the smaller federations rarely get more than one GP event and can't move up in the rankings. They will never be in "contender" position even if they skate decently, so they will be perpetually undermarked. Even under CoP, the judges are still prone to protocol judging via the PCS scores.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2006

Red Dog said:
Well, I certainly agree...speculation is running rampant...but it seems that I'm not interested enough any more to make predictions this early...but then again, come to think of it, I never really did, anyway.

You certainly tore into me when I said some years back that it is silly to predict winner even before the GPs. You must have forgot. I think you've learned a few things since then.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2006

chuckm said:
The problem is they are going to use the ISU World Rankings to seed the skaters for the SP. Considering how unrealistic those rankings are, there are bound to be many injustices. Think about this: what if a top skater (say, Lambiel) was forced to take this coming season off in order to have more surgery on his knees. Not competing this season would drop him like a stone in the rankings and he would be skating several flights away from the contenders at Worlds 2008. Same thing if Plushy decided to come back in 2009 as preparation for an attempt to defend his OGM.

Meanwhile, skaters who sit low in the ISU rankings and who come from the smaller federations rarely get more than one GP event and can't move up in the rankings. They will never be in "contender" position even if they skate decently, so they will be perpetually undermarked. Even under CoP, the judges are still prone to protocol judging via the PCS scores.

Wow - That's what I was afraid of. Not that the QR was great but it would be better than the seeding based on the ISU lists.

Joe

Mathman · Jun 30, 2006

What's wrong with the good skaters having to take their chances in the Short Program right along with the bad skaters? The only thing that would be unfair is to stack the deck. That is, to "seed" certain skaters because of past accomplishments, while the poor newcomers have to scramble as best they can.

If Lambiel skates first and Buttle skates last, that's life. Is that any more unfair than to have Berntsson skate first and Voronov skate last?

Lanie · Jun 30, 2006

Has the ISU made clear that they're going to seed skaters using the ISU ranking? I hope not, because well...the aforementioned reasons why it would suck are already posted.

There's a narticle on Yahoo! News talking about this. Slutskaya, Cohen and Lysacek all seem to like it.

I had the link but it turns out to have changed so I dunno what the new link is.

Mathman · Jun 30, 2006

Lanie said:
There's an article on Yahoo! News talking about this. Slutskaya, Cohen and Lysacek all seem to like it.

I had the link but it turns out to have changed so I dunno what the new link is.

I can see why Slutskaya (ranked #1) and Lysacek (ranked #5) would like it. It wouldn't help Sasha to use the ISU ranking system, though -- she is only ranked 12th, having missed the Grand Prix series last year, and will fall further this year no matter what she does, for the same reason.

BTW, the new article at the Yahoo site gives the impression that the ISU Congress changed the citizenship rules for Worlds and the Olympics. I think it is just for Worlds, because it is the IOC, not the ISU, that sets the requirements for the Olympics. (?)

No more QR at Worlds, Euros

chuckm

R.D.

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

hockeyfan228

Mathman

gkelly

chuckm

Lanie

R.D.

antmanb

antmanb

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Lanie

Mathman

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