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Thread: No more QR at Worlds, Euros

  1. #61
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    They said they liked the dumping of the QR - no mention of how the skaters are seeded. I think Sasha said something about the skaters being seeded for the LP by the SP or something, I forget. They all three of 'em agreed it's exhausting.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Are you prepared to watch 45 Short Programs which count in points for the gold medal? If Buttle skates first in the SP and Weir skates forty-fifth in the SP, which skater will be remembered more? What happens if Buttle is placed in the third group to skate the LP?

    Although I did not like the use of two separate judging panels because points are very subjective, the QR offered some sort of seeding for the SP which in turn offered seeding for the LP.

    Without the QR, I think some sort of seeding will be needed for the SP.

    Joe
    Joe:

    I am sure the judges will not want to watch 45 short programs either. There will have to be some way to sort out which skaters are in the top flight and which are in the second flight. Figures - up until a few years ago - were always the deciding factor under the old 6.0 system. It worked then. I am sure they will work it out.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    What's wrong with the good skaters having to take their chances in the Short Program right along with the bad skaters? The only thing that would be unfair is to stack the deck. That is, to "seed" certain skaters because of past accomplishments, while the poor newcomers have to scramble as best they can.

    If Lambiel skates first and Buttle skates last, that's life. Is that any more unfair than to have Berntsson skate first and Voronov skate last?
    Nothing wrong with the good skaters skating first and poorer skaters skating last, or better stil a complete mix all through the SP. If you believe in the finances of skating, and I believe you do, then how does the crew film the 10 best who are scattered about for a show before the LP? I think the editing of the SP would have to wait a few months for ESPN to use it.

    However, the top SP finishes will be seeded into the LP. No problem there. But something has to be done for seeding the SP. Otherwise TV is not going to tape 45 skaters. JMO.

    Joe

  4. #64
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    Actually, I think Speedy might have an ace up his sleeve here.

    One of the big things that Mr. Cinquanta would like to accomplish is to establish the Grand Prix series as a big deal -- sort of the "regular season" of figure skating, with Europeans, Four Continents and Worlds as the playoffs. He has been irate when top skaters have blown off the GP (and Four Continents), and has been disappointed that the Grand Prix events lost a good part of its television coverage and audience appeal.

    If he could push through the idea of using the ISU rankings for seeding the Worlds SP, this would put greater emphasis on the Grand Prix and would penalize skaters that skipped it.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Actually, I think Speedy might have an ace up his sleeve here.

    One of the big things that Mr. Cinquanta would like to accomplish is to establish the Grand Prix series as a big deal -- sort of the "regular season" of figure skating, with Europeans, Four Continents and Worlds as the playoffs. He has been irate when top skaters have blown off the GP (and Four Continents), and has been disappointed that the Grand Prix events lost a good part of its television coverage and audience appeal.

    If he could push through the idea of using the ISU rankings for seeding the Worlds SP, this would put greater emphasis on the Grand Prix and would penalize skaters that skipped it.
    ITA, except for the "up his sleeve" part. I think it's a patch on the outside.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    ITA, except for the "up his sleeve" part. I think it's a patch on the outside.
    Top skaters would need to do enough of the GP to stay in the top regions (not necessarily right on top) and that would factor in with the overall decisions they make about their eligible career. Actually that wouldn't bother me.

  7. #67
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie
    Lanie - There is no problem here. Everyone agrees to dropping the QR. The QR seeds were based on the last World's results and broken into two groups (A&B) Each group had its own judges (not good, and even moreso in CoP). The results of the two groups were the basis for seeding the SP.

    Without the QR (and everyone seems happy about that) there is no obvious rules on how the seeding will take place. The importance of the seedings is..., you got it, money. The TV is not going to show willy nilly skaters doing their SP. So how do we get the top skaters into the appropriate groups for the SP for a TV showing?

    If it were up to the Members of Golden Skate, we would never have a definitive list of seeded skaters, imo. Who would want Sasha in Group 3 and Kimmie in the last group to skate? That's an exaggeration on my part, but I think you might get the picture.

    Mathman has suggested that the seeding may very well be the ISU standings. That would get most of the top skaters upfront but a few will feel pushed back because of a bad skate last year.

    I presume Juniors will be taken into account to allow for Mao and Yu na to be in the last 6 to skate. That will leave 4 more names and they will be according to the ISU list. Kimmie, Fumie and Sasha, and who else?

    There will be no Rochette, no Czisny, no Liang, no Taylor, no Hughes, no Leung, no Kirrpa, no Meier,no Gedenashvili. Which among them will be in the penutimate group to skate and which in the 3rd group to skate?

    If this is the plan, time will tell.

    (I think the Men will even be more of a scramble.)

    Joe

  9. #69
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    Well, if they did it right now and seeded them according to the ISU ratings it would be

    Final group to skate:

    Slutskaya
    Sokolova
    Asada
    Rochette
    Ando
    Suguri

    Next to last group:

    Meissner
    Onda
    Kim
    Kostner
    Nakano
    Cohen

    Hmm...not perfect, but not all that bad.

    After the fall Grand Prix season, Slutskaya and Cohen will move down since they are not doing the Grand Prix.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Next to last group:

    Meissner
    Onda
    Kim
    Kostner
    Nakano
    Cohen
    Seems kind of odd to have the defending Champion not in the last group to skate. I'm sure Meissner will move up considering that Slutskaya is not doing the GP, but other skaters may move up as well. I wonder if there will be some sort of clause to get the defending champion in the last group (this is speedy of course, so it may be provided they do the GP) I'm not opposed to this idea, although ISU rankings are a bit odd and do put some skaters in odd positions. For examply, as much Sokalova is an excelent figure skater, I doubt that she is second best in the world over the past 3 years, or that she has the second best competitve record.

    I'll add men, pairs, and dance as of right now.

    Men

    last group to skate:
    Buttle
    Sandu
    Joubert
    Lambiel
    Lysacek
    Weir (assuming no Plushenko)

    Second to last group:
    Oda
    Takahashi
    Li
    Van Der Perren
    Dambier
    Zhang (Lindemann if Zhang has retired, which I can't remember)

    Pairs (Skate in groups of 4, correct?)
    Last group to skate
    Zhang/Zhang
    Petrova/Tikhonov
    Pang/Tong
    Savchenco/Szolcowy

    Second to last group
    Obertas/Slavnov
    Inoue/Baldwin
    Marcoux/Buntin
    Zagorska/Siudek

    Dance
    last group
    Dubreuil/Lauzon
    Delobel/Schoenfelder
    Chait/Sakhnovski
    Belbin/Agosto
    Grushina/Goncharov (shift everyone up one if they retired, I don't remember)

    2nd last group
    Denkova/Staviski
    Domnina/Shanalin
    Virtue/Moir
    Matthews/Zavozin
    Gregory/Petukhov
    (Faiella/Scali if any of the above have retired)

  11. #71
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    You can't use the current ISU Rankings because they don't have the points from the 2006-2007 GP events, Europeans and 4CC added in, and those points would be there before Worlds.

    If Sasha should decide to compete at Nationals and Worlds, it is unlikely that she would be in the last two flights to skate. Why? Right now, because she did only one GP event in 2005-2006, and none in 2004-2005, Sasha is #13. Once all the scores for the 2006-2007 GP events, and 2007 Euros and 4CC are added in, you can expect a minimum of 7 or 8 skaters to move ahead of her. The only way she could boost herself up in the standings would be to skate at 2007 4CC, and you can pretty much forget about her doing that.
    Last edited by euterpe; 07-01-2006 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #72
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    Nice to see posters thinking about this instead of all being happy that there is no QR.

    Assuming the standings will change after the Senior and Junior GP Finals (Nationals do not count in ISU standings), it will be hard for Sasha to get a decent seed given her only credit would be a 3rd place in last year's worlds.

    Given what is known today of the top tier skaters and what points they already hold with the ISU it seems doing well this season in the Juniors, Euros, 4CC and all the segments of the GP and especially the Final will be the big tests for those getting into the prestigious final six to skate

    For some, going to 4CC and Euros is a must. 2 GPs a must and a hopeful Final.
    Those skaters with only one GP are already out of the picture, but in theory a win or podium finish at Worlds is possible even for skaters who are in the first group to skate.

    Joe

  13. #73
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    Didn't I read somewhere that they might seed the SP groups in groups of 12, not 6? I think it was just speculation, but that would broaden the expectations, that anyone in the last two groups should be considered top 12 with random draw determining which individuals skate later among those two groups.

    Sort of like the way OD groups are drawn.

  14. #74
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    Feeling very happy about the dropping of QR.... BTW, I remember the 1996 Worlds (no QR) where Ilia Kulik was the second skater to skate in short programmes. He skated well and won the short programme, and that happened with an old scoring system!!! Today the scoring system is supposed to be such, that the skate order should not matter.

    There has been no QR at Europeans during last two seasons, I think. Eurosport has not shown the competition totally live, but we got to see the best performances from the early ones, also.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    You can't use the current ISU Rankings because they don't have the points from the 2006-2007 GP events, Europeans and 4CC added in, and those points would be there before Worlds.
    I wasn't trying to use current ISU Rankings, I was really thinking of the ISU rankings and looking at the what the groups would look like if they were used to group skaters. It's true that we can't get an accurate prediction, but we can see how off or resonable it is. It might be a good idea to seed SP groups in 12 instead of 6. It might be more fair.

    About the randomization of the SP. The SP was randomized at the Olympics as it is at nationals so it's not that crazy although there would be a large amount of skaters which seems inconvenient.

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