Hamilton Shares His Thoughts on Judging System

Mathman said:

Does a triple attempt that is downgraded to a double still count as a triple for Zayak purposes?

What if you did triple flip/double toe, then a solo triple flip attempt downgraded to a double. Could you throw in another triple flip at the end to make up for it?

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Probably not because you would still have used all your jumping passes - the place for the triple flip was filled with a double.

At any rate i think the rule about downgrades applies only to the quad in order to help the skater in terms of their planning of their program. Since a downgraded triple that is called a double isn't going to get the skater into trouble later (since doubles aren't subject to the zayak rule) it only applies to quads that are called (that is downgraded) triples.

Ant

Mathman said:

Does a triple attempt that is downgraded to a double still count as a triple for Zayak purposes?

What if you did triple flip/double toe, then a solo triple flip attempt downgraded to a double. Could you throw in another triple flip at the end to make up for it?

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If you underrotated a triple attempt and it was downgraded, it would count as a triple for Zayak purposes.

If you actually doubled the jump and landed backward after two revolutions, it would count as a double.

In which case you could possibly get credit for another triple, BUT you couldn't just throw it in without a plan, you'd have to be careful about what slot it was filling. Remember, men get slots for 8 jump elements and women get 7, and most skaters plan to use them all when planning their programs. If the doubled flip was your 5th jumping pass, for instance, are you going to replace jump pass no. 6 or 7 (or 8) with another flip attempt? What would you be losing to fit it in? Only worth it if it's something worth fewer points than a triple flip and isn't something you need. If you just throw in a flip somewhere that there was no jump choreographed as an extra jumping pass, you'll end up losing credit for the last planned jump. If the last jump was a double axel and you hadn't done any kind of axel jump yet, you'd lose credit for the next-to-last jump as well because it would be the last available slot and since you hadn't done an axel yet you wouldn't get credit for whatever jump you did there OR for the axel when you finally do it after all the jump slots were used up.

So it's never wise to plan your only axel as the last jump pass, and never wise to throw in an extra jumping pass at random. (Sometimes problems with the first jump in a planned combo or sequence can end up causing the second jump to count as a separate jumping pass, which can lead to the same issues.)

However, if your last jumping pass choreographed is a second double axel that you've also planned as a placeholder for something missed earlier, then if you single or double an earlier triple you could try it again in that slot, if you still have enough energy to land it. If you just suspect that one of your triples was downgraded, though, no, do not try it again, it already counted as that triple in the Zayak calculations.

Thanks, GKelly, that post was the very model and template of clarity.

So, to answer the original question, no, quads are not treated exceptionally in interpreting the Zayak rule. In both cases, triples and quads, a downgraded jump is scored at the lower level but counts at the higher for Zayak purposes. (But if the skater bails and actually does only the lower level jump, then it counts at the lower level for both purposes.)

From your explanation it seems to me that it would never really be worth it to try to amend your program on the fly. The most you could possibly gain is something like a 3F (5.5 points) instead of a second 2A (3.3 points), assuming that you have calculated everything out in your mind correctly while you are trying to skate your program.

That is an interesting point about possibly losing a jumping pass if you mess up and take too many steps between the two jumps of a combo. If your combo is a triple Lutz/double toe it would be a big penalty if you only got credit for a double toe (1.3 points) on your second pass. So it would probably be better just to let the second jump go (you already have 6.0 points out of the total of 7.3, before GOE).

OK, one more question. In the short program, suppose you plan 3L/2T for your combination, then 2A and 3F. If you have a wonky landing on your Lutz and omit the double, can you tack a 2T onto your flip instead?

And one more. In the short program, can you do 3Lz, 2A+2T, and 3F for your three jumping passes?

Mathman said:

OK, one more question. In the short program, suppose you plan 3L/2T for your combination, then 2A and 3F. If you have a wonky landing on your Lutz and omit the double, can you tack a 2T onto your flip instead?

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You could. However, you would need to have steps or other skating moves preceding the 3L, or else there should be additional GOE reductions on that move for not having the required preceding steps before the solo jump. Also take into account whether you're likely to get a lower GOE on the flip combination than you would on a solo flip.

And one more. In the short program, can you do 3Lz, 2A+2T, and 3F for your three jumping passes?

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No. The short program requires a solo double axel (double or triple for senior men; single or double for novice and intermediate in the US at least).

Basic short program jump requirements:

1. solo axel
2. jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable free skating movements
3. two-jump combination

How many revolutions are allowed or required vary by level and sex, and the takeoff for #2 is specified each year, alternating among loop, flip, and lutz (choice of double or triple), for juniors.

And you can't repeat the same jump in two different elements -- the only time you could do the same jump twice in a short program would be if you did two toe loops or two loops (double or triple depending on level) in the combo.

So if you want to do an axel for #3, you need to do an axel with a different number of revolutions for #1.

The way the rules are set up now, you would pretty much never see 2A-2T combo in the short program. For juniors and for senior ladies it would mean repeating the 2A. For seniors and for junior men, double-double combos. So not legal.

2A-2T and solo 1A would be legal at novice and intermediate (and was what the top intermediates used to do until last year when they were allowed to do solo 2A), but it would be more valuable to do solo 2A and another double-double combo, or triple-double combo at novice if you've got one.

Mathman said:

Soogar, do you really think that Jeff "planned" to fall on his quad?

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Though the question was not addressed to me. But I do think he planned to 'fall' on that quad, the stratege had been getting it fully rotated 'no matter what'[. Had it not being CoP, he and/or his team won't plan one!.....those old school coaches still prefer 'clean skate' above anything. only when CoP in force and the Olympic medal on stake that they would be forced to restrategy their approach.

OK, one more question. In the short program, suppose you plan 3L/2T for your combination, then 2A and 3F. If you have a wonky landing on your Lutz and omit the double, can you tack a 2T onto your flip instead?

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I believe you need a step between the landing of the 2A and the 3F. I would like to see a one foot axel landing on a back inside edge into a flip but one foot axels don't register with the list of elements.

Joe

Joesitz said:

I believe you need a step between the landing of the 2A and the 3F. I would like to see a one foot axel landing on a back inside edge into a flip but one foot axels don't register with the list of elements.

Joe

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I think the original question was if you plan (in the short progam) a 3Lz/2T combo then a solo 2A and solo 3F, but you fluff the landing of the 3Lz and can't get the 2T can you re-jig the program and put the 2T on the end of the flip?

I think under CoP the answer has to be - its alwys worth it because the double toe is what 1.5 points and worth putting in if you've missed it off the lutz...the question is...what would the caller do? Nearly all skaters put the combo jump first...the caller will undoubtedly go off practices and crib sheet and call the failed lutz as the lutz combo, but if the skater comes back and lands a 3f/2t what can the caller do?

My suspicions are that a fall on teh 3Lz would end up in the computer as 3Lz plus COMBO with -3 across the board and that overriding that would be difficult so the 2t wouldn't get credit...cue controversy and outcry...and rightly so...the program laid down on the ice should be the one marked not the crib sheet program - its the skater prerogative to do what they want on the ice and the program where the skater puts the combo in later deserves to be marked as it is - a fall on a solo triple jump with no steps proceeding it (which given you'll get a -3 for the fall it cannot be marked down anymore so is a good strategy) and a successfully completed combo.

Anyone remember 1997 Worlds Ladies SP? And injured Lu Chen, having been on the ice for only three weeks and trying to qualify china a place at teh Olympics pops her opening lutz combo to a big single lutz, comes back down the rink and does her steps into 3T and tacks a 2T on the end. That's the kind of situation i'm thinking of. Just to complete the stroy she also singled the axel and failed to get a high enough placement to even skate in the LP.

Ant

antmanb said:

I think the original question was if you plan (in the short progam) a 3Lz/2T combo then a solo 2A and solo 3F, but you fluff the landing of the 3Lz and can't get the 2T can you re-jig the program and put the 2T on the end of the flip?

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If I understand correctly, I believe that the 3Lz would only be listed as 3Lz+Combo if it was the second 3Lz performed in the program and the first was not in a combination. The plan of the program is not marked, +combo is not used everytime you don't do a combination that you planned, it is used every time that you repeat a tripple jump that has never been done in combination.

so if you had planed

3Lz/2T
2A
3F
3Lo/3T
3F/2T/2T
3Lo
3S

And you tack the 2T on to the 3F instead of the 3Lz, you are fine.

But if you plan
3Lz
3S
3Lz/2T
2A
3F
3Lo/2T/2T
3F/3T

and you tack the 2T on to the 3F instead of the 3Lz, your 3Lz will be credited as a 3Lz+combo because you cannot repeat the the 3Lz without it being in combo. You would then get 0 points for your 3S/3T because you have too many combos.

Theatregirl1122 said:

If I understand correctly, I believe that the 3Lz would only be listed as 3Lz+Combo if it was the second 3Lz performed in the program and the first was not in a combination. The plan of the program is not marked, +combo is not used everytime you don't do a combination that you planned, it is used every time that you repeat a tripple jump that has never been done in combination.

so if you had planed

3Lz/2T
2A
3F
3Lo/3T
3F/2T/2T
3Lo
3S

And you tack the 2T on to the 3F instead of the 3Lz, you are fine.

But if you plan
3Lz
3S
3Lz/2T
2A
3F
3Lo/2T/2T
3F/3T

and you tack the 2T on to the 3F instead of the 3Lz, your 3Lz will be credited as a 3Lz+combo because you cannot repeat the the 3Lz without it being in combo. You would then get 0 points for your 3S/3T because you have too many combos.

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Ok i see, but i thought i'd seen it used in the SP too when skaters (i'm thinking men here) have fallen on their opening quads and gotten 4T + COMBO...of course i don't recall seeing one of the guys trying to put a triple toe on the end of the other triple in the SP.

A question about inputting things into the computer - is the COMBO generated by the comuter automatically at the end of the program when there are two solo jumps of the same variety on order to work it out or does the caller punch in the "+COMBO" too at the time? I'm thinking it must be automatic otherwise the caller may have to go back and correct that.

Ant

antmanb said:

I think the original question was if you plan (in the short progam) a 3Lz/2T combo then a solo 2A and solo 3F, but you fluff the landing of the 3Lz and can't get the 2T can you re-jig the program and put the 2T on the end of the flip? ...

Anyone remember 1997 Worlds Ladies SP?

Ant

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I don't remember the example you gave, but Nicole Bobek famously did something like that at US nationals once. She left the 2T off her planned opening combo then added it to another jump (I forget the details). It should still hurt in 6.0 because it probably means the opening jump would count as the jump out of footwork which if it was planned as a combo is going to non-existent and get dinged for that, but I suppose that's better than no combo.

I was of the impression now that the NJS didn't allow that kind of adhoc substitution, but I'm not sure where I got that idea from.

But (while I'm here) I'm not even sure what the purpose of the SP _is_ anymore except to seed skaters for the LP (and there should be easier ways to do that). The skill sets for the SP and LP have been becoming more and more and more similar for some time now and there's less and less freedom in the LP (especially in the NJS, especially in ladies). I think they should just junk the SP altogether or rework it into something genuinely different from the LP, let's say no jumps of 3 or more revolutions so it really is about skating skills.

It hurts me to write that since generally I prefer watching SP's (I can watch SP's, good, bad and indifferent, all day long but LP's tire me out (unless they're brilliant and how often does that happen?).

Mafke said:

It hurts me to write that since generally I prefer watching SP's (I can watch SP's, good, bad and indifferent, all day long but LP's tire me out (unless they're brilliant and how often does that happen?).

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I so agree with that, and equally reuctantly. I cannot see any difference between the short program and the long except that the short is (sometimes mercifully) shorter.

I think one of the reasons that LPs have become less interesting is that you have to work 7 jumping passes (ladies) into 4 minutes, compared to only 3 in 2:40 in the short. To me, this robs the jump elements of drama while at the same time leaving room for little else.

MM

While the 'Free" Program is no long Free, it does have Options. A skater doesn't have to execute 7 or 8 jump passes, although it is in his/her interests to do so.

One of the options in the SP which bothers me is to execute a sitspin or a camel Why not both? It could even be in a combo. A choice for a camel could be free leg higher than the body or a Bielman; a choice for a sitspin could be a straight leg just above the ice or a broken leg just above the ice.

Joe

Joesitz said:

One of the options in the SP which bothers me is to execute a sitspin or a camel Why not both? It could even be in a combo.

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Would that be counted as a transitional element though? Honestly asking, I don't know, just thinking.


BTW, I heard the comment that Elena's sit spin in her LP was executed nicely, I didn't see anything "better" about it than Fumie's. ? Did I miss something?

Mathman said:

I think one of the reasons that LPs have become less interesting is that you have to work 7 jumping passes (ladies) into 4 minutes, compared to only 3 in 2:40 in the short. To me, this robs the jump elements of drama while at the same time leaving room for little else.

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They have always been doing that many jumping passes in the long program, though, and often times skaters would add an 8th pass. Michelle's 8th jumping pass is what won her the Gold at 1996 Worlds, no doubt about it.

SeaniBu said:

Would that be counted as a transitional element though? Honestly asking, I don't know, just thinking.

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Camel spins and Sits spins, and combos of both are transitional elements? Don't understand that.

Joe

I was wondering if it was a combination of the two, does it get counted as a transition or do the elements count individually? Maybe I misunderstood "combo."? Were you saying they should have a requirement for both elements together?

SeaniBu said:

I was wondering if it was a combination of the two, does it get counted as a transition or do the elements count individually? Maybe I misunderstood "combo."? Were you saying they should have a requirement for both elements together?

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Elements can count as transitions and as elements. if a skater goes directly from a jump into a spin (or with a connecting step), that counts towards transitions.

But combo spins are different in CoP than sit spins and camel spins. If a sit spin or a camel spin is one of the requirements, a combo spin in place of the required spin blocks that element in scoring. It's as if a pairs team does the wrong classification of required lift in the SP. Also, if one of the three required spins specifically is defined as one change of foot, a second change of foot results in -2 GOE.

Thanks for clearing that up hockeyfan228.
And for being nice about it too.

Joesitz said:

While the 'Free" Program is no long Free, it does have Options. A skater doesn't have to execute 7 or 8 jump passes, although it is in his/her interests to do so.

One of the options in the SP which bothers me is to execute a sitspin or a camel Why not both? It could even be in a combo. A choice for a camel could be free leg higher than the body or a Bielman; a choice for a sitspin could be a straight leg just above the ice or a broken leg just above the ice.

Joe

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Jo do you mean force the skater to do both a solo change foot camel and solo change foot sit?

Not that the rules have necessariyl been consistent so they could change them but the Biellman is a variation of the upright spin position rather than the camel which is why skaters are allowed to put them on the back of their layback spins (also a variation of an upright spin).

Ant

antmanb said:

Jo do you mean force the skater to do both a solo change foot camel and solo change foot sit?

Not that the rules have necessariyl been consistent so they could change them but the Biellman is a variation of the upright spin position rather than the camel which is why skaters are allowed to put them on the back of their layback spins (also a variation of an upright spin).

Ant

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Good point, Ant - Why is there a choice between a sit spin and a camel? They are entirely different. What if there was a choice of layback or scratch spins?

It's the choices that bother me in the SP, but that's me.

Joe