Worlds 1993 - Women's competition

[gkelly]

Men have different rules. They get 9 instead of 7.

That's not true and never has been. What rulebook have you been reading?

The Zayak rule has always limited the number of jumps that may be repeated, NEVER the total number of triples allowed.

The well-balanced program rules for the new system limit women to 7 jumping PASSES and men to 8. However, by using combinations or sequences it is possible to fit 8 triples into 7 passes, so any woman who is capable of six different kinds of triples is perfectly free to try 8 triples if she wants.

[gkelly]

But Midori Ito had set the bar and anything less than what she did deserved less points.

Which would make sense if there were a mark just for jumps. Set the bar for jumping and call that 6.0 . . . until it gets surpassed. And do the same for the other areas of technical that make up the first mark.

But Nathalie Krieg had already set the bar for spins -- how could anyone get 5.9s or 6.0s without matching her on those elements?

The standard for basic skating and connecting steps might have been higher in earlier decades when the skaters were not spending so much practice time, or setup time during the programs, on all those triple jumps. Should a skater with difficult jumps and weak skating get a higher score than someone who had "set the bar" for basic skating skills 10 or 20 or 50 years earlier?

I disagree with scores being "placeholders". That's not a good way to judge. Everything should be universal. Which it is now with COP.

That's an opinion, and one that's certainly defensible -- including by the designers of the new system. But it's not the way skating judging worked in the 1990s, or in the 1890s when it made no sense to consider "difficulty of jumps" in relation to the technical mark. You can't look back and say that it was wrong of judges in the 19th or 20th century not to use a judging approach developed in the 21st.

[Mathman]

I disagree with scores being "placeholders". That's not a good way to judge. Everything should be universal. Which it is now with COP.

It's not really a question of agreeing or not agreeing. It's the diference between ordinal judging and point accumulation.

Under ordinal judging the only responsibility of the judges is to say, "this skater was best, this one was second, this one third," etc. Little markers like 5.6 were just memory aids, useful in the case where you see a lot of skaters and maybe forgot what the first few were like by the time you got to the end.

In fact, IIRC, they would stop the procedings after the first skater in a group and compile the median scores for that skater. This was to establish a bench mark for each judge vis-a-vis the average of the panel. So, for instance, if you gave a 5.4 to the first skater and everyone else gave a 5.6, then you knew that the rest of the panel was judging a little more generously today than you were, so you had to be sure to mark the rest of the skaters in a consistent fashion.

Under the hybrid NJS (half point totals, half "who did the judges like the best today"), the judges still retain the same mind set, IMHO.

At Worlds, one judge gave Lambiel a total of +14 GOE points, while another judge, feeling more stingy, gave a total of +3 (the average of the panel was about 6).

So, is someone biased in favor of or against Stephane? No, because the same judge who gave Lambiel +14 also gave Joubert +14, and the same judge who gave Lambiel only +3 GOEs gave Joubert 0 (again the average of the panel was about 6).

So are these two judges crazy? How can the same performance be worth 14 points to one judge and 0 points to another judge?

IMHO it's because, in their minds, they are still using ordinals. Overall, the two judges agreed that Lambiel was slightly better, Joubert was a strong second, and somebody else was third -- the actual points didn't matter.

MM

[Mathman]

GKelly, is this a Zayak violation (men's)?

4T+3T
4T
3A+3T
3A

(Yes, because you repeated three jumps, 4T, 3A and 3T. Is that right?)

Tim Goebel once did three quads in a program. Is this jump layout OK?

1. 4T+3T
2. 4T
3. 4S
4. 3A+3Lo
5. 3A
6. 3 Lz
7. 3F
8. 3S

That's 10 jumps with three or more rotations, with only the 4T and the 3A repeated.

MM

[Zuranthium]

That's not true and never has been. What rulebook have you been reading?

The Zayak rule has always limited the number of jumps that may be repeated, NEVER the total number of triples allowed.

The well-balanced program rules for the new system limit women to 7 jumping PASSES and men to 8. However, by using combinations or sequences it is possible to fit 8 triples into 7 passes, so any woman who is capable of six different kinds of triples is perfectly free to try 8 triples if she wants.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Here is the link to Sarah Hughes' 2002 Olympic program - http://youtube.com/watch?v=GTPwnLkXp...=hughes%202002

After having done 6 Triples, Sandra Bezic says "She is only allowed 1 more Triple".

Do you honestly think Surya Bonaly would have stopped at 7 Triples if there weren't a max?

[Zuranthium]

But Nathalie Krieg had already set the bar for spins -- how could anyone get 5.9s or 6.0s without matching her on those elements?

Spins + Spirals are part of the "presentation" component for the Long Program.

[gkelly]

After having done 6 Triples, Sandra Bezic says "She is only allowed 1 more Triple".

Do you honestly think Surya Bonaly would have stopped at 7 Triples if there weren't a max?

Neither Hughes nor Bonaly had a triple axel.

They had 5 different triples. They were allowed to repeat 2. That allows a total of 7.

If you have 6 different triples and repeat 2, that allows you 8.

If you only have 4 different kinds, the most you can do is 6.

You need to read the actual rules and not rely on TV programs for your information. The commentators don't always take the time to explain the details.

Spins + Spirals are part of the "presentation" component for the Long Program.

No.

From the 2003 Official USFSA Rulebook, SSR 4.28 (p. 125):

All the elements of a free skating program (the jumps, spins, step sequences and particularly the glide, footwork and the difficulty and variety of the steps) must be taken into consideration in the mark for technical merit [emphasis added] and be rewarded according to their relative merit as to difficulty. No individual element can be given predominant importance and the program must be considered as a whole.

Here's the rule about jump limitations as it read in 2002-03 (SSR 4.05 A., p. 123):

Skaters may include as many double jumps as they desire. For triple and higher jumps, only two different types of jumps (e.g. flip) may be attempted more than once each. These two may be attempted only twice each, one as a solo jump and once in a jump combination or a jump sequence (number of jumps in sequence is otherwise unlimited).

No distinctions between men and ladies, and nothing about the total number of triple and higher jumps allowed.

In 1992-93 it was pretty much the same except that it applied only to triples and didn't include quads -- no one, male or female, was trying two quads in a program at that point, so there was no reason to limit them yet. That changed in 98-99.

Here's a link to the ISU rulebook as of 2004, with rules for the New Judging System:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

(Note that some new rules have been introduced through ISU communications since then; they should be incorporated into a 2006 edition of the ISU rulebook sometime in the coming months.)

See p. 20 for rules about the well-balanced program including the maximum number of "jump elements" allowed, which is indeed 7 for ladies and 8 for men but can include more than 1 triple per jump element in the case of a triple-triple combination or sequence. See also pp. 21-22 under "Repetitions" for language similar to what I quoted above (aka the Zayak rule).

[gkelly]

GKelly, is this a Zayak violation (men's)?

4T+3T
4T
3A+3T
3A

(Yes, because you repeated three jumps, 4T, 3A and 3T. Is that right?)

Right, the violation is in repeating three different jumps.

Tim Goebel once did three quads in a program. Is this jump layout OK?

1. 4T+3T
2. 4T
3. 4S
4. 3A+3Lo
5. 3A
6. 3 Lz
7. 3F
8. 3S
That's 10 jumps with three or more rotations, with only the 4T and the 3A repeated.

Yes, that would be legal.

And while we're at it, how about, let's say,

1. 3A
2. 3Lz
3. 3S-3Lo
4. 3T-3T
5. 3F
6. 3Lo
Hmm, this lady has already done eight triples, repeating two (the toe loop and loop), and she still has one more jumping pass left under the new limits and is still allowed to do another sequence or combo, which could have three jumps. To make good use of the 1.1 multiplier for the second half of the program, let's go with
7. 2A-2T-2Lo

Eight triples. Perfectly legal. Now you just need to find a skater who can actually land all those jumps in one program.

[Mathman]

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Here is the link to Sarah Hughes' 2002 Olympic program - http://youtube.com/watch?v=GTPwnLkXp...=hughes%202002

After having done 6 Triples, Sandra Bezic says "She is only allowed 1 more Triple".

Do you honestly think Surya Bonaly would have stopped at 7 Triples if there weren't a max?

Because of the Zayak rule, you can squeeze in only 7 triples if you don't have a triple Axel. Do the math. Without the triple Axel, there are only five possible triples. Only two can be repeated. Five plus two is seven.

But if you have a triple Axel, ah, now you can do eight (6 plus 2 repeated).

Neither Sarah Hughes nor Surya Bonaly had a triple Axel, so the Zayak rule stopped them from doing more than 7.

Example

3A
3Lz+3T
3F+3Lo
3Lz
3F
3S

That's 8 triples, which is OK under either judging system.

And you can still throw in a double Axel!

In the New Judging system, anyone who can bring a triple Axel AND a triple/triple will clean up!

MM

PS. Oh, sorry GKelly, we posted at the same time. Thanks for the clarification.

[Theatregirl1122]

ETA: and then I posted at the same time as both of them and asked the same question, oh well. Great minds... right? (now what does that have to do with me?)

So, to follow mathmans questioning to GKelley.

Lets assume Kimmie has her 3A back, that would make her a lady with both tripple-tripples and a 3A

Would it be legal for Kimmie (and I'm not implying she would) to do:

1. 3F-3T 9.5
2. 3A 7.5
3. 3Lz-3T 10.0
4. 3Lo 5.5x
5. 3Lz 6.6x
6. 3S 5.0x
7. 2A-2T-2L0 6.7x

and end up gaining 50.7 base points for her jumps, using 6 passes for 8 tripples and a 3 jump combo with double in the 7th? (this by the way is her jump layout from worlds, switching a 3A for her first 2A)

[gkelly]

1. 3F-3T 9.5
2. 3A 7.5
3. 3Lz-3T 10.0
4. 3Lo 5.5x
5. 3Lz 6.6x
6. 3S 5.0x
7. 2A-2T-2L0 6.7x

Yes, that eight-triple program would be legal. All six different triples, repeats on toe loop and lutz.

[Zuranthium]

They had 5 different triples. They were allowed to repeat 2. That allows a total of 7.

If you have 6 different triples and repeat 2, that allows you 8.

Okay that makes sense.

But my point still stands...Midori Ito's programs are where the bar was set and the judging was rather dumb at the time, resulting in BAIUL being overscored.

Also, regardless of what the rules say, the judges did not seem to pay attention to the Spins, Spirals, and Step Sequences for the technical mark in the long program. Otherwise how would Bonaly be able to get a 5.9 for having such poor Spirals and Steps. And why did some skaters who had the same jump content as another skater but far better spins or footwork not get higher marks.

In summation - Thank the GODS for the new judging system.

[antmanb]

Men have different rules. They get 9 instead of 7.

No they don't and no they didn't!!

Under 6.0 the zayak rule was the only restriction on jumps and under CoP the men are allowed 8 jumping passes.

Ant

[antmanb]

Well, yes, obviously doing one of each kind is a good thing. But Midori Ito had set the bar and anything less than what she did deserved less points.

I disagree with scores being "placeholders". That's not a good way to judge. Everything should be universal. Which it is now with COP.

Well then what were they supposed to do with 6.0...heck in 20 years time people might be landing quints so we better give a 7 triple program by a lady including a triple axel a 3.5 for tech cuz in the 2028 games someone might land a full set of quints??

I think 6.0 did a fine job of comparing the skaters with themselves at that time. I'm don't like the way this system is touted as being absolute and having people coming up with a meaningless PB that is affected by the judging panel and the skaters you're competing against. Its saying its one thing but it actuall ends up being a messed up hybrid of both.

Ant

[antmanb]

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Here is the link to Sarah Hughes' 2002 Olympic program - http://youtube.com/watch?v=GTPwnLkXp...=hughes%202002

After having done 6 Triples, Sandra Bezic says "She is only allowed 1 more Triple".

Do you honestly think Surya Bonaly would have stopped at 7 Triples if there weren't a max?

No, Bezic says she is only allowed one more triple because she knows that two triples have already been repeated in combination and that since sarah doesn't have a triple axel she's planning to throw in therefore she can only do one more triple without violating the Zayak rule.

If you are so sure that there was a rule stating that the was a maximum number of jumps allowed in an LP under 6.0 then why don't you post the rule?

Ant