What is missing with Fumie? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What is missing with Fumie?

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I find it interesting that the two performances of Irina's where she showed no "heart", fire or personality were the 2002 Olympics and the 2006 Olympics.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The same could be said for Kwan in the 1998 and 2002 Olympics.

I can't remember where -- could have been here or FSU -- but there was an analysis of Slutskaya's results that showed that she was nearly uniformly successful when she was significantly in the lead after the SP, either on points, or having her closest competition in 4th or lower, and under 6.0 dependent on others' errors to win. Kwan's tendency was to do very well when she was behind. She led going into both Olympic LP's.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
hockeyfan228 said:
The same could be said for Kwan in the 1998 and 2002 Olympics.

Well, the dirtly little secret of the olympics is that about half the time it's just not a showcase of great skating (I'd say at the Torino games there wasn't a single really great LP among the mens or ladies medalists though all of them are capable of great skating).

Also, many, many favorites (and great champions) just don't perform at their best in the olympics (including some who win like Yamaguchi whose winning olympic LP just wasn't very good - for her at least). It's probably due to a combination of hype and not-great training conditions.

I'd also noted that Slute did her best LPs when she was well out in front after the SP and was generally told that I was wrong, she was a new skater after her illness, etc etc etc
 

heyang

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I find that Olympic skating for Mens and Ladies can seem tentative unless it's really close. The Battle of the Brians was excellent because they were both in contention. The battle of the Carmens - Kat skated 1st (I think) and did well, but Debbie fell under pressure. Irina did not skate well for her at either 02 or 06 Oly's. Michelle was tentative during 98 & 02.

The pairs and dancers usually hold up better - probably because they are trying not to disappoint their partners and have someone else out there for 'support'

As for Fumie, I haven't seen her live and she hasn't amazed me via TV.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Hmm...I'll give you that compared to 1998 Nationals, Michelle's Olympic long that year was missing something. BUT I would not put that LP in the same category with Michelle's 2002, Irina's 2002, 06 or Sasha's 2006 Olympic LP's. Although, I do think Michelle in 2002 and Sasha in 2006 both had some memorable moments in their LP, while Irina's were both a disappointment by her standards. Lyra as performed at 1998 Olympics was still a well down program-I thought it was 2nd best she skated it that year, and had Tara not skated the LP of her life, Lyra would have been an OGM worthy program, even with the slight fumble on the 3flip landing.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
MKFSfan said:
Hmm...I'll give you that compared to 1998 Nationals, Michelle's Olympic long that year was missing something....Lyra as performed at 1998 Olympics was still a well down program-I thought it was 2nd best she skated it that year, and had Tara not skated the LP of her life, Lyra would have been an OGM worthy program, even with the slight fumble on the 3flip landing.

Im 1998 think she was following a strategy that usually works for gold medal contenders, especially if they skate early: don't try to put down the performance of a lifetime, just do a solid job, don't make any major errors and hope for the best (not as easy as it sounds of course). In hindsight it was easy to criticise her for not going all out, but not going all out worked for Witt (twice), Yamaguchi and this year Arakawa. (1994 and 2002 were different kinds of situations in which that strategy didn't apply).
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
chuckm said:
I find it interesting that the two performances of Irina's where she showed no "heart", fire or personality were the 2002 Olympics and the 2006 Olympics.

Its called pressure.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
MKFSfan said:
Hmm...I'll give you that compared to 1998 Nationals, Michelle's Olympic long that year was missing something. BUT I would not put that LP in the same category with Michelle's 2002, Irina's 2002, 06 or Sasha's 2006 Olympic LP's. Although, I do think Michelle in 2002 and Sasha in 2006 both had some memorable moments in their LP, while Irina's were both a disappointment by her standards. Lyra as performed at 1998 Olympics was still a well down program-I thought it was 2nd best she skated it that year, and had Tara not skated the LP of her life, Lyra would have been an OGM worthy program, even with the slight fumble on the 3flip landing.
The question was about fire, "heart," and personality, which I think was missing from 1998 Kwan. I think that the difference between Kwan in 1998 and Kwan in 2002 and Slutskaya in 2002 and 2006 was that Kwan 1998 was technically brilliant, while Kwan in 2002 and Slutskaya in 2002 and 2006 were not.
 

Fozzie Bear

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
I thought she was lifeless in the first half of the 2002 performance, but after that flip she really skated with fire. Reports of Kwan's tentativeness in 1998 have been greatly exaggerated, imo. She had plenty of heart. If only she were the one who skated after Surya...:no:
Seanibu said:
I have a hard time believing that the most decorated Japanese skater is anything close to second rate.
:yes:

I really wonder what Zhulin has in store for her.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Mafke said:
I'd also noted that Slute did her best LPs when she was well out in front after the SP and was generally told that I was wrong, she was a new skater after her illness, etc etc etc
I don't know about Russian Nationals, but since her illness (2003-4 season) ,Slutskaya won every ISU event in which she was ahead at the end of her SP, and lost the two where she was second after the SP:

2004-5
Cup of China (9.82 points ahead of Volchkova), blowout in the LP
Cup of Russia (3.62 points ahead of Kostner, a dark horse, and 4.42 points ahead of Arakawa), blowout in the LP
GPF (1.36 points ahead of Arakawa, who should have been her only real competition, and 14.4 points ahead of Rochette), blowout over Rochette in the LP
Europeans (3.74 points ahead of Sebestyen, who'd had awful LP's all year, but was defending champion, 8.39 points ahead of Poykio, the bronze medallist), just a few points over Liashenko and Poykio in the LP.
Worlds (2.83 points ahead of Cohen, 6.18 points ahead of Kwan, and 5.34 points ahead of Kostner). 5.51 lead in the LP over Cohen, not a blowout by Slutskaya standards, but over 16 points over Kwan, who was third in the LP.

2005-6
Cup of China (7.30 ahead of Asada, 12.66 ahead of Arakawa), blowout in the LP (over Arakawa)
Cup of Russia (6.82 ahead of Asada), blowout over Asada in the LP.
GPF (5.48 behind Asada), 2.66 behind Asada in the LP.
Europeans: (5.55 ahead of Sokolova), blowout over Sokolova in the LP
Olympics (.03 behind Cohen and .71 ahead of Arakawa), blown away by Arakawa in the LP and beaten by Cohen as well.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Mathman said:
I would love to be able to sit down with Ms. Nicole and discuss what it was that she saw in these two different skaters that guided her to take that route.


MM :)

I remember reading something about Lori Nichol where she said that she had to take a different route with Fumie because she wasn't as technically proficient as Michelle. Fumie needed more grounding in her technical elements before she could push herself artistically.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
hockeyfan228 said:
The question was about fire, "heart," and personality, which I think was missing from 1998 Kwan. I think that the difference between Kwan in 1998 and Kwan in 2002 and Slutskaya in 2002 and 2006 was that Kwan 1998 was technically brilliant, while Kwan in 2002 and Slutskaya in 2002 and 2006 were not.

I know i say this time and time aagin but i think the people who think Kwan skated without fire or passion in 1998 were the ones who watched US natioanls...i didn't and i thought her Olympic LP was beautiful and passionate. I'll repeat again also, that on my footage of the LP (both the BBC and Europsport) the triple flip is clean and there's no problem with it (again i'm told on the US broadcast it isn't so clear). I really don't see any lack of emotion in that program or anything of the usual criticisms of that progam and i can only assume that's because i don't have the US nationals version as a comparator.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The bottom line for me at 1998 Ladies Olys was a choice of sophistication or an upbeat little tyke.

I do believe little tykes tug at the hearts of the viewers and unfortunately, the judges.

Joe
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
antmanb said:
I know i say this time and time aagin but i think the people who think Kwan skated without fire or passion in 1998 were the ones who watched US natioanls...i didn't and i thought her Olympic LP was beautiful and passionate. I'll repeat again also, that on my footage of the LP (both the BBC and Europsport) the triple flip is clean and there's no problem with it (again i'm told on the US broadcast it isn't so clear). I really don't see any lack of emotion in that program or anything of the usual criticisms of that progam and i can only assume that's because i don't have the US nationals version as a comparator.

Ant

Oh, interesting! My copy shows a bit of a saved landing. So, if I had to nitpick that performance, that is the only flaw. The girl skated cleanly, landed 7 triples. OK, she didn't go all out like in Philly and maybe even succumbed to the pressure a bit, BUT she was still more on that year than she was in 2002, or Irina was either Olympics, or Sasha this Olympics. Had there been no Tara, Michelle would have been OGM and noone would have noticed that performance to Lyra was not quite as effective or free as National's Lyra was. It was still a performance to be proud of. The announcers were commenting had she gone later on, we would have seen 6.0's. Not to take anything away from Tara's skate of a lifetime, but skate order DID play a big part in the 6.0 system.

I have no idea what the judges would've done had the order been reversed. Who knows how either would've skated had the order been reversed. Tara herself didn't think she could win, and went out and laid it all out there. Her strategy worked. Michelle was more careful, not wanting to make any mistakes, being in the lead after the SP, and skating early. She followed her strategy and did a good job. It was not enough.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
MKFSfan said:
Oh, interesting! My copy shows a bit of a saved landing. So, if I had to nitpick that performance, that is the only flaw. The girl skated cleanly, landed 7 triples. OK, she didn't go all out like in Philly and maybe even succumbed to the pressure a bit, BUT she was still more on that year than she was in 2002, or Irina was either Olympics, or Sasha this Olympics.

I think 1998 was the best year in terms of nerves and stress for both Michelle and Irina because Irina came back after falling or doubling her 3 Lutz in the SP and being placed, IMO, more than generously above Bonaly* in around 5th place, with a cracking LP that i seem to feel included a 3/3. Neither of them ever matched those LPs again in an Olympics.

Ant

* Irina did 2Lz/2tanoToe, 3Lp and 2A with her usual (for that time) fast but travelling spins and Bonaly did 3T/3T, 3S and 2A...both had choreographically unsatisfactory programs at the time so i think Irina placing above her was more evidence of judges hating Bonaly and pushing the russians.
 
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