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Thread: ISU rule changes

  1. #31
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    With all these posts on jump sequences, and they are good posts, one has to realize that the Free skate is no longer Free!! And from a sportsman's point of view I think that is probably the best way to go.

    Problem with today's skaters are that they hold back on their exhibitions where they can really be FREE.

    Joe

  2. #32
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The interesting thing about these rule changes is looking to see who is going to be favored by them.

    In pairs, it looks like Obertas & Slavnov to me, especially when you get into the meat and potatoes of the Scale of Values and the GOE guidelines. Here's why:

    1. The throw triple flip (or triple lutz) has been upgraded to 5.5 base points from 5.0 (it used to be 5.0, same as the triple loop). O&S and S&S both do the 3FTh. Since they are still one symbol, I'm assuming you can't do both a throw flip and throw lutz in the same program. If you can, it would be even more interesting.

    2. The rules for 'extra levels' are downgraded on twists. Last year to get level four, you had to have an 180 degree split. That is no longer mentioned. And the base values for triple twists and quad twists have been raised. O&S have a quad twist and were doing it regularly in the 2004 2005 season. They tend to have a chest crash however many twists they do. "Awkward catch" is deliberately limited to -1 penalty.

    Additionally, several types of takeoffs for twists have been added. In addition to the flip/lutz entrance, we now have points for a toe entrance and an axel entrance,with the explanation that these entrances used to be done in the past. Does anyone know who used to do these entrances? I will have to check out vids of G&G and pairs of that era-perhaps Cherkosova/Shakrai from earlier times?

    3. To add insult to injury, the twistmeisters can now do triple twists in the SP as well. This, however, will aid all the Chinese pairs in addition to O&S.

    4. Anti-Zhang's points. Unison between jumps is now penalized as much as -3. If you recall some of the Zhangs 2A3T combo's, they didn't have the slightest bit of unison. And they had no penalty. Not now.

    5. Shen & Zhao penalty. One skill has been removed from the free program. Nearly all pairs have been doing an inside death spiral and an outside death spiral. Outside spiral get an extra point. S&Z are the only pair that does a forward outside spiral so they do both a forward outside and a back outside spiral, giving them one base point above the rest. Poof. That point is now gone. Plus this favors teams with stamina problems (PetTikhs) some too, but it's a double edged sword. Teams with no stamina problems can now move one jump or throw into the second half of the program for the extra 1.1 multiplier/bonus.

    6. Both skaters have weak jumps--2 if both fall. (Used to be just -1, whichever happened, one or two falls) This is probably logical.

    7. Loss of rhythm between 2 jumps-this is a typical Pang & Tong difficulty. She has little bitty fast rotating jumps. He has big slow rotating jumps. If one or the other isn't falling, there is either a unison or a rhythm problem or both. Penalties are now more severe, or at least more explicitly severe.

    8. For Marcoux & Buntin, they are double twisters and do 3Sth and 3Lpth. Plus they had superior death spirals for high GOE. Now they get only one death spiral. They had a 3Tw, but like I&B, it wasn't a very good one

    9. Dube & Davison-increased explicit penalties for irregularities in lifts-something they had a lot of this season, but which I hope they will have less of. And since they are just up from juniors, it's only a year ago that they competed with a 13 skill program. They are also double twisters though.

    10. Inoue & Baldwin-they lose .5 advantage on the 3ATh, and they are double twisters. However, they used to do a triple twist, if not well. They are probably going to have to brush it off and use it again, at least in one of the 2 programs if not both.

    However, it must be remembered that no one has been falling on jumps like Julia Obertas this year. To take advantage of all this, she has to get her act together.

    While we're on the subject of twists, after watching the Novice pairs at Liberty, I don't think that higher values for twists are called for. When you have a little bitty girl and a big guy he can throw her higher. Some of the novice pairs had absolutely huge twists on the order of the Chinese. Twist height is mostly about the same skills as the caber toss in the Scottish games or the shotput. It's not a real skating skill.

  3. #33
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    While we're on the subject of twists, after watching the Novice pairs at Liberty, I don't think that higher values for twists are called for. When you have a little bitty girl and a big guy he can throw her higher. Some of the novice pairs had absolutely huge twists on the order of the Chinese. Twist height is mostly about the same skills as the caber toss in the Scottish games or the shotput. It's not a real skating skill.
    Very interesting post, I really to the insite of allot of the members here.

    I know this is probably obvious, but doesn't the hight have a great deal to do with whether the tinny little lady can land that? I know Rene is not "so tiny" (stellar figure IMO and I can see the strength in her legs that make it seem more likely to land that) and that makes them slightly more impressive to me they can pull off the 3ta - do the judges see it that way?

  4. #34
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    What could be wrong with doing two axels of any rotations in a row (i.e., without any step in between)?
    That's what I wish I knew.

    But I finally found the rule about it (ISU Communication #1319, page 13):

    "Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-losted jump is not a jump sequence [or combo], but two separate jumps."

    So you can't do two double Axels right in a row, but it's OK if you put a bunny hop in between?

  5. #35
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the analysis, Doris P -- super post!

  6. #36
    Go NJ Devils
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    What DORISPULASKI said

  7. #37
    Skater Girl
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    I've seen Sasha Cohen do a Charlotte on an inside edge while going from her forward CoE spiral into a Charlotte in her Don't Rain On My Parade exhib, so it is possible! And Naomi Nari Nam did one on an edge didn't she?

    Doris P, thank you for all that eval... this is fascinating but I need people who know more than I do to help out!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    That's what I wish I knew.

    But I finally found the rule about it (ISU Communication #1319, page 13):

    "Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-losted jump is not a jump sequence [or combo], but two separate jumps."

    So you can't do two double Axels right in a row, but it's OK if you put a bunny hop in between?
    The takeoff for an axel is forward, and the landing for the axel is backwards. Two in a row can't, by definition, be a combo, because a combo can only be created when the landing edge/leg/direction of jump N and the take-off edge/leg/direction of jump N+ are the same, i.e., the N+1 jump is a toe loop or loop. They can't be in sequence without some time of transitional move in between, and I don't know if it's possible to do any of the legal steps for other sequences (three-turn, mohawk) from an axel landing to an axel take-off. (I don't have my jump "cheat sheet" with me right now.)

    That's why they'd be two separate jumps.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    1. The throw triple flip (or triple lutz) has been upgraded to 5.5 base points from 5.0 (it used to be 5.0, same as the triple loop). O&S and S&S both do the 3FTh. Since they are still one symbol, I'm assuming you can't do both a throw flip and throw lutz in the same program. If you can, it would be even more interesting.
    Denny and Abbott did throw triple lutz and flip in their long program at Liberty. And Denny/Frazier tried doubles of each in novice, unsuccessfully. Evidently Kerry Leitch thinks it's legal.

    [Obertas/Slavnov] tend to have a chest crash however many twists they do. "Awkward catch" is deliberately limited to -1 penalty.
    However, if the twist is seriously flawed, it's likely that additional penalties would apply, not just the "awkward catch" one, e.g., a crash is likely to involve one or more of the following:

    Lady is not caught in the air before landing
    Lady is not caught at the waist
    Lady lands on two feet
    Man exits on two feet
    Underrotated and downgraded or Underrotated up to 1/4 rev. (especially on a quad attempt)

    Additionally, several types of takeoffs for twists have been added. In addition to the flip/lutz entrance, we now have points for a toe entrance and an axel entrance,with the explanation that these entrances used to be done in the past. Does anyone know who used to do these entrances?
    I seem to remember Valova/Vassiliev doing a double axel twist at the 1988 Olympics, and probably elsewhere.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    "Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-losted jump is not a jump sequence [or combo], but two separate jumps."

    So you can't do two double Axels right in a row, but it's OK if you put a bunny hop in between?
    More likely a mazurka or tap-toe, i.e., half or quarter toe loop, to get you from the backward landing to forward for the takeoff. For a bunny hop, you'd have to turn forward first and then hop, losing all rotation, and start the rotation again for the second axel.

    Axel-tap toe-axel is pretty common here at the preliminary and pre-preliminary levels. I can do it with waltz jumps. I'll have to see if it would work with a bunny hop instead. I'm guessing I could force it but it would feel awkward. I'd be afraid to try with axels. The tap-toe or mazurka, I'd be willing to try but since I haven't been practicing axels lately I wouldn't expect to succeed.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Doris - Very nice having you back. I, and I am sure many others, rely on your Pairs expertise. You've got to write a book on the scoring of Pairs some day.

    By the way, do you think Piseev was behind the changes favoring O&S. The Russian Federation does not want to lose Pairs in any championships. It has become their legasy.

    Joe

  12. #42
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    gkelly, I'll have to check out V&V's LP's, then! (edited-they were doing the axel entry at 1987 worlds. I just downloaded the vid.) This entry does deserve extra credit as it does involve some skating from the lady.

    btw, I was at Liberty as well, and not having read communication 1396 at that time was much surprised to see 3twists in the senior SP and 2 toe throw jumps in the LP by 2 Florida pairs. However, as I did not see the judge's protocols, I did not want to say for sure that the 3 flip throw and the 3 lutz throw were both legal in the same program. For all I know, the judges may not have given credit for the second throw! Also, I was questioning what I thought I saw, wondering whether they had done a 3 toe throw, and not a flip, as it appeared to me.

    And if they are legal, it's a headscratcher as to how the computer will handle it. After all, the caller only has the option 3FTh. And 2 identical throws are not allowed. But as you say, Leitch has evidently decided it's OK.

    SeanBu As to John and Rena and the throw 3A, my guess is that they are scheduled to get whacked with the substantial deduction for 'man's position' as John uses the Chinese throw method. There is no evidence that they are getting any particular favors from the judges on the 3Ath. Rena is small, but John is a small guy. There's a clip of them teaching Campbell Brown to skate and it's amazing how the news staff seems so huge compared to both of them.

    And as to tiny ladies landing twists, the man is REQUIRED to catch her at the waist before she lands, so it isn't a great task for her to land it, however small she is, provided he does his job.

    If you are old enough to remember the Beverly Hillbillies, it's a form of possum juggling. Or maybe that Australian bar sport dwarf tossing.

    And Joe, I would not be at all surprised if Piseev had something to say about it! However not!

    After all, last year's pairs' rule changes, which basically made the 3t 2A sequence combined with either a 2A as a single jump (Pang & Tong) or a 3T (Shen & Zhao and the Zhangs) both illegal. It was this very rule change that cause Zhao's injury trying to master the 3T 3T sequence. Of course these things sometimes backfire.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 07-18-2006 at 11:41 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog
    don't have the technical know-how of skating but I think a combo is two jumps in a row and a sequence is when you have a jump, maybe some half turn or something and then another one...? (techies correct me if I flubbed)
    I know the difference between a combo and a sequence, but thank you. My question is about the efficacy of this rule.

    Does a sequence take up one of your multy-jump passes? I had thought it did. If so, it is just an aesthetic change, not a concrete one. Does anyone know the answer to this question?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122
    Does a sequence take up one of your multy-jump passes?
    Yes.

  15. #45
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    SeanBu As to John and Rena and the throw 3A, my guess is that they are scheduled to get whacked with the substantial deduction for 'man's position' as John uses the Chinese throw method. There is no evidence that they are getting any particular favors from the judges on the 3Ath. Rena is small, but John is a small guy. There's a clip of them teaching Campbell Brown to skate and it's amazing how the news staff seems so huge compared to both of them.
    You are a wonderful wealth of info. Please post more often. I would also be a fool for not have mentioning that John is a smaller guy, but in comparison, I would have to say she is a little lager than a majority of the ladies in pairs. weight wise. I think that is what gives here figure such nice lines. Katie is one I think of as being a little more muscular (I mean that in such a good way) than others and I cant really think of any more muscular. What am I missing here? I know the comments of how John throws Rene have been mentioned (I had not heard the Chinese throw to be exact) but is it not taken into consideration the size of the Man doing the throwing? That seems a little ....ah ....not fair to a genetic point of view. Anyhoo, is that true?

    Where are you getting these downloads?

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