ISU rule changes

[tully]

You're probably right. I haven't seen a full Charlotte on an edge....

sasha does them occasionally in exhibitions (see marshall's fall 2005 DROMP on youtube)

[antmanb]

Additionally, several types of takeoffs for twists have been added. In addition to the flip/lutz entrance, we now have points for a toe entrance and an axel entrance,with the explanation that these entrances used to be done in the past. Does anyone know who used to do these entrances? I will have to check out vids of G&G and pairs of that era-perhaps Cherkosova/Shakrai from earlier times?

Still reading through your great post but just wanted to jump in to say (and i'm relying purely on, i think , Robin Cousins' commentary since i didn't know much about pairs elements at the time), Eltsova & Bushkov, before they made it to the top did an LP in truly hideous peach coloured costumes at one point in the program they set up what looked like a throw double axel but it went up higher than normal and not as far and before she landed they caught hands...to me it looked like a variation on a throw double axel rather than an "axel twist lift" which is what i think it was described as.

I can't imagine an axel take off being very easy for a twist lift...you'll be able to spot those who have been attempting it by looking for the male paris skaters with black eyes from get knee'd in the face!

Ant

[antmanb]

That's what I wish I knew.

But I finally found the rule about it (ISU Communication #1319, page 13):

"Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-losted jump is not a jump sequence [or combo], but two separate jumps."

So you can't do two double Axels right in a row, but it's OK if you put a bunny hop in between?

You could put a side step in between them. Land the first double axel, open your body out a little to the side, plant the left toepick jump up but don't rotate land (still sideways on) on the right toe pick and simultaneously push onto the LFO edge and take off for the second double axel. If the number of jumps really aren't limited in a sequence then what is there to stop someone doing 4 double axels with the side hops in between and getting 10.56 as a base base mark (4 lots of 3.3 for the double axels multiplied by the 0.8 sequence multiplier).

Ant

[Mathman]

I know the difference between a combo and a sequence, but thank you. My question is about the efficacy of this rule.

Does a sequence take up one of your multi-jump passes? I had thought it did. If so, it is just an aesthetic change, not a concrete one. Does anyone know the answer to this question?

I think the reason that it is a real change and not just an aesthetic change is because of that .8 multiplier. (Thanks to Hockeyfan for being the first to explain this to me, post 8 above.)

If you did a second solo quad and it was scored as a (failed) combo, you would still get full value (9.0) for the quad as the first jump of a combo.

But if it is scored as a failed sequence, then, because of the .8 multiplier applied to all jumps of a sequence, you only get 7.2 points for the quad.

Now that I understand it, I think the change is a good one.

MM

[antmanb]

I think the reason that it is a real change and not just an aesthetic change is because of that .8 multiplier. (Thanks to Hockeyfan for being the first to explain this to me, post 8 above.)

If you did a second solo quad and it was scored as a (failed) combo, you would still get full value (9.0) for the quad as the first jump of a combo.

But if it is scored as a failed sequence, then, because of the .8 multiplier applied to all jumps of a sequence, you only get 7.2 points for the quad.

Now that I understand it, I think the change is a good one.

MM

But i thought, and i am likely wrong, that you were only allowed one jump sequence in the program and so what if you fall on a quad that should have been a combo not a sequence and you then properly execute your 3toe/3salchow sequence? Is the second sqeuence counted?

Actually the more i think about it, the more i think i'm wrong and thinking of only being allowed one three jump combo rather than one sequence!

Ant

[Joesitz]

sasha does them occasionally in exhibitions (see marshall's fall 2005 DROMP on youtube)

If this is true, and I can believe Sasha capable of charlotte on an edge, then the next step would be to put the charlotte into a spin. It would be mind blowing and put the Bielman to rest.

Joe

[antmanb]

If this is true, and I can believe Sasha capable of charlotte on an edge, then the next step would be to put the charlotte into a spin. It would be mind blowing and put the Bielman to rest.

Joe

But Joe can you imagine the number half-arsed attempts at the charlotte spin we would then see - how many attempts would end up looking like a spinning dog-peeing?!!

I think i'd rather see bad Biellmann spins than bad Charolotte spins!

Ant

[Joesitz]

But Joe can you imagine the number half-arsed attempts at the charlotte spin we would then see - how many attempts would end up looking like a spinning dog-peeing?!!

I think i'd rather see bad Biellmann spins than bad Charolotte spins!

Ant

[Joesitz]

These posts on jump sequences and combos are very informative and for me fascinating.

My question is do the infractions to the rules get into the computer which comes up with the errors?? I was thinking of Plush in the GPF in NKH where he put an extra jump pass into his program and was penalized.

I know the Tech Asst made the call of the jump without thinking it wrong, but was it the computer which tallied the number of passes? or was this second thoughts later by humans?

Joe

[hockeyfan228]

My question is do the infractions to the rules get into the computer which comes up with the errors?? I was thinking of Plush in the GPF in NKH where he put an extra jump pass into his program and was penalized.

The ISU software does. The reason there was an issue at Japanese Nationals, where Oda performed an illegal jump that was later nullified, giving Takahashi the title and Olympic berth, was that the Japanese Federation decided to use its own software, and they didn't program the rule correctly.

[dorispulaski]

I can't imagine an axel take off being very easy for a twist lift...you'll be able to spot those who have been attempting it by looking for the male paris skaters with black eyes from get knee'd in the face!

Ant

Ant, That does sound a lot like a somewhat screwed up axel twist lift.

And you've got to be right about the black eyes. I remember the interview with Orscher and Lucash where they were asked what their least favorite skill was, and it was the twist, according to Garrett, who said that he had lots of injuries from it (broken noses, I think). I'd say, practice it only in a goalie hockey helmet, the kind with the metal cage over the face, but probably then the lady would crack her elbow on the helmet!

I'm going to spend some time watching old pair vids looking for a really good clip to make of an axel twist lift.

The other versions are just nothing-three different ways of picking in, and which edge you're on. If the girl is tiny, often it is all for show, too. Check it out. Sometimes the girl goes just as high, no matter whether she has an effective pick in or not, provided the guy is a big bruiser.

[dorispulaski]

I know the comments of how John throws Rene have been mentioned (I had not heard the Chinese throw to be exact) but is it not taken into consideration the size of the Man doing the throwing? That seems a little ....ah ....not fair to a genetic point of view. Anyhoo, is that true?

Where are you getting these downloads?

There's no handicap given by the ISU for size, other than Novice, Junior, and Senior, ratings, which keeps 9 year old girls out of the mix.

And the Chinese are often said to fling the lady, accompanied by a large kick, sort of, of their back leg. Check out early Shen and Zhao vids versus BerSikh vids. And on message boards, there was much snarking about the difference in technique and whether it ought to matter in COP by fans of Chinese vs. fans of Russian pairs.

Tong of Pang and Tong manages to get that high kick without making it look awkward, a huge plus, I think.

Downloads, I get from rinkside, youtube, and the ever popular fsvids. Olympic vids, which is what the Campbell Brown vid was, are in the restricted section of fsvids. You have to upload a vid or two and register to enter the restricted sections.

The link is

http://www.fsvids.9.forumer.com/fsvids
Read the Rules
Go to the thread you are interested in. Click on the link you want to download and follow the directions that come up on the page that next shows. If you have any problems, go to the Video Help section of the forum. There is also info and TV and web broadcast scheduling, doing streaming video, recording streaming video, and other interesting viewing stuff for the obsessive skating fan (ME)

http://www.youtube.com
search by skater name, and click to view. If you want to download and save the file, I can give you directions.

http://www.rinkside.org
you have to follow the directions, download software, and do the filesharing thing with DC++

[antmanb]

Ant, That does sound a lot like a somewhat screwed up axel twist lift.

And you've got to be right about the black eyes. I remember the interview with Orscher and Lucash where they were asked what their least favorite skill was, and it was the twist, according to Garrett, who said that he had lots of injuries from it (broken noses, I think). I'd say, practice it only in a goalie hockey helmet, the kind with the metal cage over the face, but probably then the lady would crack her elbow on the helmet!

I'm going to spend some time watching old pair vids looking for a really good clip to make of an axel twist lift.

The other versions are just nothing-three different ways of picking in, and which edge you're on. If the girl is tiny, often it is all for show, too. Check it out. Sometimes the girl goes just as high, no matter whether she has an effective pick in or not, provided the guy is a big bruiser.

It doesn't seem the rules are mentioning it but i've also heard that an effective entrance to the split twist is a loop entry so the lady performs a falling leaf split going into it which strikes as being more difficult than either the toe loop or lutz/flip entrance becaue of the toe assist in those.

In the axel twist lifts are ladies caught like on a regular split twist?

Ant

[hockeyfan228]

But i thought, and i am likely wrong, that you were only allowed one jump sequence in the program and so what if you fall on a quad that should have been a combo not a sequence and you then properly execute your 3toe/3salchow sequence? Is the second sqeuence counted?

The rule is "There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Long Program."

The second (or third) sequence would count.

Doh, and I just realized why no one is doing those multi-jump sequences: only the base values of the two hardest jumps are added and then multiplied by .8. The other jumps don't count.

[Mathman]

...I just realized why no one is doing those multi-jump sequences: only the base value of the two hardest jumps are added and then multiplied by .8. The other jumps don't count.

Little by little it's all coming back to me I only have a couple of months left to re-memorized Communications 1319, 1342 and 1396 before the season starts.

But I still want to see someone do a 4 double-Axel sequence. Give them 5.3 points for the last two and an extra +2 GOE for an unusual entrance!