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Thread: ISU rule changes

  1. #76
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    "A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg and the knee is not more than 90 degrees; if this angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered as an upright.

    If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction from -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)"
    Looking really closely (protractor in hand, LOL) at a bunch of sit spins, it seems to me that the requirement of 90 degerees is not very difficult to attain. In this picture of Plushenko, for instance, he seems to be pretty close to 90 degrees, but he's not "sitting" at all. His buttocks are way higher than his knee (-3 GOE, LOL).

    http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-...6021602250.jpg

    In this picture, his behind appears to be almost as low as his (skating) knee.

    http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sport...geni041218.jpg

    Here is Todd Eldredge. Nice and low, plus his free leg is not too far off from being parallel to the ice. I don't like his rounded back, however.

    http://www.leigh-i-am.com/Skateam96/toddsitspin.jpg

    Michelle. To me, this is just a beautiful position. Nice back. Her rear is about the same level as her knee. Could be lower, but not without sacrificing some other aspect of the position.

    http://cdn.channel.aol.com/aolnews_p...12065509990002

    Emily Hughes. I like this one, too. The hand assist allows her both to keep her bottom low and her extended leg straight. (The rounded back can't be helped in this position.)

    http://www.dianesrink.com/sarah/emily/217/practice3.jpg
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-20-2006 at 03:56 PM.

  2. #77
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    That first picture of Plush shows what we used to call a stylized spin. Neither sits nor straight up. It is very effective in exotica skating. It was in every Ice Show, but the sits spin went all the way down.

    Some skaters years ago would do an 'L' spin and go down into sit, arise to 'L' and go down to sit again. It took a lot of energy.

    One of the reasons some skaters avoid a true sits spin (the way Jackson Haines invented it) was because it takes a lot of energy on coming up from the sit. Nowadays, one needs energy at the end of a program for the quad lutz.

    Joe

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    I hate sit spins. They will not work properly for me.

  4. #79
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    One thing I have noticed in all these rule changes is that it is mostly pairs, rather than singles skating, where the ISU seems to be constantly coming up with new refinements in the CoP.

    I suppose this is because pairs scoring is more subtle -- you have to be looking for various holds, etc., not to mention unison and complement.

    In singles skating, despite all these pages of rules, it is still pretty simple. You get 4.0 for a triple toe, 4.5 for a triple Salchow, etc. Then you pick up an odd point here and there for spins, footwork and spirals. Then the judges weigh in with the artistic mark, and most points wins.

    MM
    Mathman, One thing I have noticed in all these pair rule changes is that they make me strongly desire to have a really fine tinfoil hat.

    It is amazing how the changes parallel the strengths of the Russian champion pair at the time the rules are promulgated. It was first said (allbeit with great snark) that the original COP version was set up to insure that B&S would have clearly won in 2002. However, B&S's strengths were not T&M's! T&M had (relative to B&S or S&P) weak lifts, rather expressionless skating, and triple twists that were not remarkably high and often had a chest crash, but they did have both a 3S and a 3T and great consistency and great purity of line in the landing of throws. Voila! We had rules where two axel entry lasso lifts are no longer allowed, twists are deemphasized, and the rules about jumps are gerrymandered.

    But wait! They retire. And the current Russian pairs of Murkhortova & Trankov, Petrova & Tikhonov and Obertas & Slavnov have very different strengths than either T&M or B&S- they have super twists, for one thing, and a throw triple flip. And now we have rules where twists have more points and more importance, and triple flips get more points.

    However, if I were the PetTikhs I would be miffed. No one ever changed the rules to make it easier for them!

    There are just fewer skills to manipulate in singles, so they don't, that much.

    And I think the American and Canadian federations have totally not grasped the concept that the best way to cheat is to make sure that the rules favor your competitors-and it's even legal. who can blame Piseev for helping his skaters if the Americans, Chinese and Canadians don't fight him? The Americans and Canadians are probably swapping off singles rules for pairs, because there is no discipline that Americans neglect supporting like the pairs. (Canadians less so)

    Other than the original multiplier that was changed because Tim Goebel would have won the 2002 Olympics LP under the first version of COP, anyway.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 07-20-2006 at 09:44 PM.

  5. #80
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    It's not just Pairs. Piseev is Cinquanta's right hand man. Cinquanta really doesn't know about figure skating and he relies on Piseev who tailors the rules, imo, to suit his skaters.

    Joe

  6. #81
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    It means that the steps can go back the way they came (along the same line or in a loop or zigzag). E.g., if you're doing a step sequence starting at the west end of the rink and heading east, it's now allowed for some of the steps to head west.
    Oh ok that makes for fun directional cahnges in the step sequences which would allow the skater to satisfy the slowing down/quickening to enhance the difficult of the step sequence.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Ant

  7. #82
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    Mathman, One thing I have noticed in all these pair rule changes is that they make me strongly desire to have a really fine tinfoil hat.

    It is amazing how the changes parallel the strengths of the Russian champion pair at the time the rules are promulgated. It was first said (allbeit with great snark) that the original COP version was set up to insure that B&S would have clearly won in 2002.....

    But wait! They retire. And the current Russian pairs of Murkhortova & Trankov, Petrova & Tikhonov and Obertas & Slavnov have very different strengths than either T&M or B&S- they have super twists, for one thing, and a throw triple flip. And now we have rules where twists have more points and more importance, and triple flips get more points.

    Hey, don't bogart that tin foil, same some for me. ITA about the points you made except that I really don't think I'm the only one here who thinks that COP being so tough on underrotation might have a little to do with the ladies champion at SLC.

    I really don't know if the new rules will help O&S unless they manage to tweak things so that falling gets you extra points (and I wouldn't put that past Piseev)

  8. #83
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke
    (and I wouldn't put that past Piseev)
    To be completely clear, I don't really blame Piseev is that is what he's doing. He's supposed to look out for the interests of his federation's skaters and he does with a vengeance, it's not his fault if other federations aren't so ... assertive.

  9. #84
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Mafke, Exactly! I don't blame Piseev either. I just wish some of the other federations would buy a freakin' clue and protect their skaters' interests as effectively. If they did, we would actually end up with a system that was close to fair to all the skaters.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI
    However, if I were the PetTikhs I would be miffed. No one ever changed the rules to make it easier for them!
    How true! What Lakernik/Piseev give with one hand -- making repeated jumps illegal for pairs (Pet/Tik had 3T's, and 3S's) -- they take away with the other (Pet/Tik have superb death spirals).

    Pet/Tik's in Tokyo -- I hope they show everyone.

  11. #86
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Russian federation never cared about Petrova & Tikhonov. Piseev has made several public disparaging remarks about them over the years. Now, of course, them staying eligible is Russia's best bet to staying on the podium.

  12. #87
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    These rule changes are put forward by the ISU Technical Committees, right? The Russian Federation seems to have the upper hand in both the Figure Skating technical committee (chaired by Lakernik) and the Ice Dance technical committee (chaired by Alexander Gorshkov).

  13. #88
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    Pet/Tik did one heluva LP in Calgary and I am not one of their fans. Pet can land a throw jump second to none of them, and she's giving more in performance. A repeat of Calgary in Tokyo will definitely get them on the podium but gold? The Chinese with three teams are vying heavily for it. It'll all come down to a clean skate and Wow lifts and throws. What else is there in Pairs without B&S and S&P?

    Joe

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    Isn't it interesting that the rule giving so many extra points for Biellmanns came along when Irina was firmly back in the picture. The rule changes for Singles skating upgraded the point values for many of the skills Irina had always had, just in time for 2005 Worlds and the 2006 Olympics.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    Isn't it interesting that the rule giving so many extra points for Biellmanns came along when Irina was firmly back in the picture. The rule changes for Singles skating upgraded the point values for many of the skills Irina had always had, just in time for 2005 Worlds and the 2006 Olympics.
    yeah..... his best bet for a gold is O&S. Watch the level changes coming in to suit their best tricks or warn them of a special upgrade of a trick. all this before the Worlds.

    Joe

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