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Thread: What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP??

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP??

    If you've been following the ISU changes to COP for pairs in the thread started by Mathman, you may have been puzzled, as I have, to find that there are now three kinds of twists, as well as different points offered for each, with triple and quad twists credited more than they were previously.

    Perhaps, like me, you weren't quite sure how to tell these entries apart and were not even sure you'd ever seen a loop or axel entry twist. I went through a lot of my old vids of pairs of the past, and have had some luck finding some interesting twists. These are all in .wmv format.

    Here's the double twist, with the usual flip/lutz takeoff of Speroff and Luchau, a recently teamed novice pair that we saw at Liberty. This shows that huge height in a twist is mostly a function of how big the guy is and how small the girl is, not experience, or even huge skill.

    http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...446D3C0232C066

    Here's Gordeeva & Grinkov's quad twist from the usual lutz/flip takeoff, done in 1987 when Katia was something like 67 pounds. It makes the same point, kind of. If the girl is very small and the guy is big and strong, even if the girl kind of misses the toe pick, she can still go high and make four rotations before landing.

    http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...F5B20B750BEB2B

    Cherkasova & Shakrai's quad twist is from the more difficult axel entry. She steps forward while facing her partner. Wow.

    http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...217D8807F71B4B

    Since you don't see them every day, here's an axel entry triple twist by Valova and Vassiliev.

    http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...B5AD726C001308

    The new COP changes cite a toe loop entry twist. I couldn't find one for the life of me, and would love to know who used to do one. The closest I could find was:

    The Carruthers double lateral twist. Her takeoff and landing leg are the same, and she takes off more or less backward, so I guess that would make it a Loop twist (but no pick, so not a toe loop twist).

    http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...31EABE3CE1517C

    I'd like to know what all of you think about this? Personally, I'd rather see twists scored about the way they were last year.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Doris you seem to be quite the technophile too...i can't watch the clips while i'm at work because i'm blocked from "file stroage or sending" sites but i can't get .wmv files to play on my mac at home...any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Ant

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    http://fsvids.9.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=2081

    Ant, try downloading the Windows Media Player for Mac linked to in the above thread.

    I'm Mac challenged, so I can't tell you much about it myself.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Thank you Doris - both for the fantastic pairs news and clips and also for any technical advice since my knowledge relies very much on other friends!!!

    I'll try the link when i get back home.

    Thanks again

    Ant

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    To Ant:

    You could also try the VLC media player, it is supposed to play files of all kinds although I think that I had some trouble trying to play wmv files. Normally I use Windows Media Player for Mac and it works fine.

    Here is a link (I hope it works for you)
    http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/5758

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Hi Fredegunda - thanks a lot for the link - i'm going to try these all out when i get back home.

    Ant

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Do tell us how it worked out?

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb
    i can't get .wmv files to play on my mac at home...any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Ant
    http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...omponents.mspx
    Works great for me as well. And it really is free.

    Or just get this on there.
    http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 07-28-2006 at 08:15 PM.

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    Rinkside
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    Thanks

    Doris, I was able to launch the video clip and you are dead on. You can tell that the team has no ability or skills, it's purely the size of the man that counts.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I'm all for limiting the size of the man to the woman in Pairs. At least one could judge the throws and lifts on an equal basis and actually see who has the best without a WOW.

    If you like the WOW, then advise Rena and John to break up,

    Joe

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    Custom Title 76olympics's Avatar
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    Doris, this might be a little bit of a TJ , but have you seen the 1969 Nationals LP by the Kauffmans on FSvids? I hadn't ever seen footage of them before and it was very interesting to me. I do believe they had a twist, but no SBS jumps. The spin variations, though, were something to see ! (an inverted camel). And he did this move during the death spiral that I cannot even describe.. It is fun to compare how the skating elements have altered in form and style through the years.

    It was a great skate though. I was really impressed!

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    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    I'm all for limiting the size of the man to the woman in Pairs. At least one could judge the throws and lifts on an equal basis and actually see who has the best without a WOW.

    If you like the WOW, then advise Rena and John to break up,

    Joe
    Maybe instead of Jon and Rena breaking up we should take back the Olympic medals from Gordeyeva and Grinkov, Salle and Pelletier, Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, and Shen and Zhao because they all had an unfair size advantage against their competitors.
    Last edited by Glory; 07-29-2006 at 07:10 PM.

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    Rinkside
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    Instead of everyone criticizing teams with a large size difference, perhaps we should be applauding them for catching on to what the European and Asian teams have been successful at for years.

    The fact of the matter is, without a significant size difference between the male and female in a pair team the majority of teams will struggle with the more difficult pair elements (lifts, twists and throws). I recently read an article by John Zimmerman in which he discusses finding the right partner. He stated in this article that the optimal difference in height for pairs is around 12 inches.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothingbettertodo
    Instead of everyone criticizing teams with a large size difference, perhaps we should be applauding them for catching on to what the European and Asian teams have been successful at for years.

    The fact of the matter is, without a significant size difference between the male and female in a pair team the majority of teams will struggle with the more difficult pair elements (lifts, twists and throws). I recently read an article by John Zimmerman in which he discusses finding the right partner. He stated in this article that the optimal difference in height for pairs is around 12 inches.

    I mean look who Zimmerman is skating with now. And why can't they take the size variations into consideration. It almost seems like a "promotion of anorexia" for the ladies and insulting to the gentleman under 5'10 to me - well to a point anyway. Some what serious but not so much without some understanding of the "whys."

  15. #15
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, Joe's right-this particular version of the rules is going to be very hard for John & Rena to equal their fourth place finish of this year, even with a perfect skate.

    Their 3ATh (and when I think how hard this must be, considering no one else can do it, and John is a small guy for pairs), is now only +2 over the field rather than +2.5 (because of the bump to the 3FTh), or +5 overall.

    And they had a level 4 on the death spiral that's being ditched, another small gain lost over the field.

    The best they can manage on a twist is going to be their choice of a double twist level 4, maybe from the axel entrance, which gets you an extra .3 or a triple twist level one (and saying a little prayer while doing it). The Chinese and O&S can all manage a quad twist now that there is an point advantage to doing them. I&B are going to take at least a 3 point hit overall right there.

    They are certainly going to have to go back to doing 3T's in the short, as well as the long.

    Looks like they have to go for the quad throw that their coach suggested. I wonder which one they'll pick? Rena's loop is rather better than her salchow.
    Possibly the quad toe throw that Ding & Ren used to do?

    Well, it will be interesting.

    This isn't going to be that wonderful a set of rules for Dube and Davison either.

    And the point I was making is not that teams should be penalized for being mismatched; I just wanted them not to be quite so rewarded for being mismatched. You're going to have novices who can do a quad twist and seniors who can't. And something is very wrong with that picture.

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