What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP??

[antmanb]

This one, I may know the answer to. At Worlds 2003, Obertas was skating with Sokolov. At Cup of Russia 2003, she was skating with Slavnov and they did
3Fth in the SP and the 3LpTh and 3FTh in the LP. So they seem to have known both skills pretty much for their whole career together. (This is one of the joys of COP--you can look up what everyone was doing back in the 2003 Grand Prix.)

Ok, well that's my theory out of the window then!! Maybe the triple flip is easier for them - does anyone know what Julie's triple (or even double) edge jumps are like? She seems to struggle badly with the double axel - i can't remember one in competition that she's landed. That might explain the use of the throw flip? Does anyone know who had a hand in writing the pairs side of the CoP? Tied into the bit below about assigning tarrifs for elements i'd like to know who they asked to come up with the tariffs in the frist place and who got it changed this time around.

The whole business of assigning tariffs to skills very few teams (or even no teams) have done is one of the black magic pieces of COP, given that any particular team may not be very representative.

I am suspecting that the flip is about the same as the loop because of the height assist you get from the toe pick. But we'll definitely see!

Like i mentioned above it would be interesting to see who was involved and who was used in coming up with the pairs tariffs.

One final observation on the difficulty of thrown jumps is that they must follow (at least a little bit) the correlating difficulty of performing the solo jump without the throw. The flip is a more difficult jump done solo for many reasons one of which is the pick assit in the jump. Though called a "toe salchow" here in the UK and at least on paper is a salchow with a toe assist, unlike the loop and toe loop the jump is not made easier with the toe assist - the weight transfer from the LBI edge to the right pick is quite difficult, as is obtaining the backspin position required for multi-revolution versions of the jump - all things which are not required for a loop who's preparation, take off, flight and landing are the same in all phases. I would guess that having a partner launching you into a flip is difficult because there are more things that can go wrong and can affect the jump going well, unlike the loop...anyway i think arguments can me made either way for the jumps being equally as difficult or one slightly harder than the other. One thing though related to teh CoP tarrifs is that just because one skater find one things more problematic than another doesn't mean that is necessairly harder. The Axel is nototrriously difficult and a lot of young skaters land their double sals and toes before landing the axel. But tht doen't mean the tariffs should be changed to make an axel worth more than a double sal...or does it?!

Ant

[Fredegunda]

Am i misremembering my US pairs or weren't John and Rena the skaters that were doing SBS 3 Lutzes at some point? The pair i'm thinking of could do them separately and the lady in the pair was the one that nearly always landed them and it was the man that seemed to have more of psychological problem landing it SBS - was this them? If so why not put those back in as well as trying the triple toes?

I remember that the Canadian pair Meghan Duhamel and Ryan Arnold do SBS 3 Lutz and landed them at Canadians this year. Meghan is a singles skater too, I'm not sure about Ryan, and I have no clue if he misses the jump more often than she does. Anyway, maybe this is who you were thinking of?

By the way, on the subject of twists. What "generic" twists were the pairs all doing before COP made all these distinctions? In the mid-nineties I only remember commentators talking about the split twist and lateral twist.

[dorispulaski]

John and Rena only landed the SBS 3 lutzes once, that I remember, and that was at Skate America in 2004, I think. Putnam & Wirtz landed them in the LP at the same competition, too.

I believe they returned to the 3T's because they actually could land them more often, as opposed to the 3Lz's where John kept popping his because he could not get the timing right in the pair, although he could land one by himself on the rink. Or so the story goes...

And as to the twists, that's why I started the thread. If you download the clips (if they are still active) you can see what the axel entry twist looks like vs the standard lutz/flip entry, which is all we saw in recent years. The lateral twist has a sort of loop entry, and I have a clip of it, too. I couldn't find a vid of anyone doing a toe loop entry though, and am hoping someone will wander by here who might know who used to do this. The twist and the landings are approximately the same; it's the takeoffs that are different.

[antmanb]

John and Rena only landed the SBS 3 lutzes once, that I remember, and that was at Skate America in 2004, I think. Putnam & Wirtz landed them in the LP at the same competition, too.

I believe they returned to the 3T's because they actually could land them more often, as opposed to the 3Lz's where John kept popping his because he could not get the timing right in the pair, although he could land one by himself on the rink. Or so the story goes...

And as to the twists, that's why I started the thread. If you download the clips (if they are still active) you can see what the axel entry twist looks like vs the standard lutz/flip entry, which is all we saw in recent years. The lateral twist has a sort of loop entry, and I have a clip of it, too. I couldn't find a vid of anyone doing a toe loop entry though, and am hoping someone will wander by here who might know who used to do this. The twist and the landings are approximately the same; it's the takeoffs that are different.

Maybe the writers of the CoP made a typo and meant to write "loop" instead of "toe loop" entry? I just can't get my head around how one would do a twist lift with a toe loop entry...unless its like a toe axel - like a lift entry?

Ant

[Fredegunda]

And as to the twists, that's why I started the thread. If you download the clips (if they are still active) you can see what the axel entry twist looks like vs the standard lutz/flip entry, which is all we saw in recent years. The lateral twist has a sort of loop entry, and I have a clip of it, too. I couldn't find a vid of anyone doing a toe loop entry though, and am hoping someone will wander by here who might know who used to do this. The twist and the landings are approximately the same; it's the takeoffs that are different.

Thanks for the clarifications, dorispulaski. I kind of got that the entries/takeoffs were different, but I was wondering why these distinctions became important right now. I guess that COP is notorious for compartmentalizing and specifying. Did having a more difficult takeoff during the 6.0 era affect the technical score?

[dorispulaski]

What was under the covers during the 6.0 era, I haven't a clue. However, it's worth knowing that no one crowned Cherkasova & Shakrai king and queen of pairs because they could do a quad axel twist. They were 4th in 1977 and 1978, 2nd to Tai & Randy in 1979 (No Rodnina), They did win Worlds in 1980 (No Tai & Randy & no Rodnina), were 4th in 1981, and were not at Worlds again (info from Skatabase).

You could argue that this was part of the reason for V&V's good tech scores, I think.

I think you're right about putting these different entries in COP--compartmentalization is what they do. Since no one is doing these different entries, I bet no one was calling for them for advantage purposes.

However, maybe Vassiliev plans to teach axel entry? After all, he and Valova were the last I recall doing this-it would give his pairs a further advantage, perhaps?

It will be interesting to see who opts to try a double axel entry twist with the arms over the head, the split and the handless catch to avoid doing the triple twist, especially in the short. I wouldn't be surprised to see John and Rena go for this, since they're comfortable with axel everything. And O&S are back with Vassiliev, are they not? However, I would think resurrecting the quad in the long would be better for O&S, myself. Perhaps the axel entry triple in the short for O&S, if they can learn it?

[dorispulaski]

Maybe the writers of the CoP made a typo and meant to write "loop" instead of "toe loop" entry? I just can't get my head around how one would do a twist lift with a toe loop entry...unless its like a toe axel - like a lift entry?

Ant

Ant, I haven't a clue. That's why I've been looking for a clip. But if the COP people meant loop, I would think the tariff would be higher for the toe loop entry, not lower. It's supposed to be easier. I suppose it goes like a toe loop throw, except up, not out? :clueless:

[Fredegunda]

And O&S are back with Vassiliev, are they not? However, I would think resurrecting the quad in the long would be better for O&S, myself. Perhaps the axel entry triple in the short for O&S, if they can learn it?

I think O/S went back to the Velikovs? Vassiliev was mentioned as a possible coach for S/S given the Steuer fiasco but I haven't kept up with that news. Thanks for the info about Cherkasova and Shakhrai as well as V/V - weren't V/V very technically advanced for their time? They even did SBS 3t's starting in 1983 if I recall correctly, which was unheard of for pairs at the time. So in a way it's not surprising to hear that they would have used the axel entry for the twist. Interesting, though, that no one else seems to have opted for it since then.

[dorispulaski]

So in a way it's not surprising to hear that they would have used the axel entry for the twist. Interesting, though, that no one else seems to have opted for it since then.

I would guess that it really is harder than the flip/lutz entry, and that no extra credit was given for it. If it netted more points, or was of similar difficulty, someone would be using it, I think

[pipsqueak]

Just free-floating-thinking here:

I suspect that it's the woman's height affecting the spin of any twist/throw.
This is NOT just in relation to the size/strength of the man...but the mastery begins with the ability of the woman to "snap" & rotate ...in other words, her 'compactness", which can be related to her own height to weight ratio for starters. Of course then, the other elements start piling in on top of that...speed, timing, partner height/weight/strength. I do not believe that a man's size, strength, or a huge size difference between the pair can overcome deficits in this first "requirement" of the female pair skater...otherwise, a man could skate with a sack of barley and fulfill half the elements required.

So what is the diff. betw. Johnny & Rena in height? Everyone seems focused on Johnny being "short" for a pair guy...meanwhile, there are continued comments on the importance of height "difference" betw the pair, soooo... shouldn't we NOT talk about "short Johnny" but instead investigate the height diff....isn't Rena awfully short...like 4'7" or 4' 9" ? And isn't Johnny 5'9 or 5'10"? Accordingly then, the difference between their heights is just fine for success....even according to Zimmerman's "formula", & even if I'm off an inch on either end. If you all aren't talking about this...then in reality, you are talking about "no pair can be successful without having The Hulk skate in the guys' role.

Speaking of which--sigh--follow the money (read, medal count) if you want to know why rules are made that seem to be restrictive or senseless or ....whatever. In my opinion, looking back over the way this sport has been regulated internationally, it reveals rules, regulations, requirements that get slapped on to "regulate out" diversity and creativity. Concurrently, these end up "favoring" & encouraging the development of cookie cutter athletes, almost always NOT based on any "western" trends or "prototypes" or cirucumstances. I really can't be dissuaded from this thought as surely as I know that ....if it has feathers and quacks and waddles down to the pond....it is a duck.

For instance, I thought Ice Dancing had become the "odd ball cousin" in this sport...increasingly boring, increasingly predictable in outcome, increasingly incomprehensible to the amateur viewer or fan--let alone the "maybe-could-be-hooked" occassional viewer. It was hurting the reputation of the sport overall...and had become almost a dead weight...until the "scandal" called for revisions, reviews, restructuring. Now, though most of this had to do with the way scores were arrived at (and then, there was the new scoring system itself), the effect in Ice Dancing, coming when it did, allowed competitors a ray of hope...a chance to shine and strut their stuff--because they knew there was going to be a crack to slip through...a way to overcome the regulated "prototypes".. Suddenly, Ice Dancing came alive...it was the most dramatic and entertaining event of the Olympics IMO this past year. The diversity of the couples gave it a HUGE shot in the arm. There is NO doubt in my mind that, within a few years, all those cracks will be filled in again, new rule by new rule, & this diversity will melt away. You see the same process washing over pairs. The men's event has totally fallen off my radar screen. I can't even bear to watch it anymore. Grumble Grumble. I guess my bottom line is that I believe most of these rules and regulations that pile up until we reach critical mass.....eventually hurt the sport's popularity, it's continued development, kill creative expression and artistry, and in the end narrow its support base.

[getalife]

Thank you pipsquick for understanding what many of us were trying to say last weekend. While the man does have to be strong, there are many other factors that come into play during a twist or throw or actually anything that a pairs team does. That is why it is called "pairs" it takes 2 equally talented people.

It is too bad that the judging system puts caps on what they allow the teams to do . My point earlier was, if a team can work hard and achieve a new goal, say a triple twist at Novice, then they should be able to do it. And if I understand it correctly, it is only a USF rule that they are not allowed, not an international rule.

[Joesitz]

getalife - Is there an advantage if the male partner is 6.0 tall and the female is 5.0? Tall men do very well in basketball and tossing around little women. Do you agree?

Joe

[getalife]

I think that it is smart planning on the part of the male, female and the coach if there is a height difference. I do not think that it needs to be 12 inches. I totally do not understand your question about tall basketball players and tossing around small women. What does one have to do with the other?

[Joesitz]

I think that it is smart planning on the part of the male, female and the coach if there is a height difference. I do not think that it needs to be 12 inches. I totally do not understand your question about tall basketball players and tossing around small women. What does one have to do with the other?

Sorry, I was not precise. (I had just watched a Mets defeat by the Marlins and it was upsetting)

There is an advantage in basketball for tall players to be on the team for obvious reasons. I don't want to hear about the one exception which most shorties realize that will never happen for them.

In Pairs skating, if the male partner is very tall and he lifts his lady partner straight up off the ice to the length of his long stretched arms, the Pair already has an advantage of a WOW move. WOW moves are essential in Pairs. (Much better than those cumbersome pair spins.)

For this I say the height of the gentleman to that of the lady is a distinct advantage in Pairs skating if the the difference between the two is greater than the distanced in height of their competitors. Like the basketball players, it is obvious.

The height of a lift and a throw does not necessarily make the win for the couple. I am just saying that it is an advantage, and the height ratio between the couple is important. They still have to do those ugly pair spins, as well as the other sundry elements of pairs skating.

I do agree with you on 'smart planning', and a warning should go up for couples who do not have much height difference.

Joe

[Alsace]

They still have to do those ugly pair spins, as well as the other sundry elements of pairs skating.
Joe

A smidge OT: I was watching the best of nationals DVDs I recently purchased at the USFSA museum gift shop. Starbuck and Shelley and Tai and Randy both did a pair camel spin in which both partners entered the spin from the air. I thought that move was one of the nicest pair spins I've seen. Why did it go out of fashion and what is its technical name?