What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP?? | Golden Skate

What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP??

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
If you've been following the ISU changes to COP for pairs in the thread started by Mathman, you may have been puzzled, as I have, to find that there are now three kinds of twists, as well as different points offered for each, with triple and quad twists credited more than they were previously.

Perhaps, like me, you weren't quite sure how to tell these entries apart and were not even sure you'd ever seen a loop or axel entry twist. I went through a lot of my old vids of pairs of the past, and have had some luck finding some interesting twists. These are all in .wmv format.

Here's the double twist, with the usual flip/lutz takeoff of Speroff and Luchau, a recently teamed novice pair that we saw at Liberty. This shows that huge height in a twist is mostly a function of how big the guy is and how small the girl is, not experience, or even huge skill.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=4B446D3C0232C066

Here's Gordeeva & Grinkov's quad twist from the usual lutz/flip takeoff, done in 1987 when Katia was something like 67 pounds. It makes the same point, kind of. If the girl is very small and the guy is big and strong, even if the girl kind of misses the toe pick, she can still go high and make four rotations before landing.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=F1F5B20B750BEB2B

Cherkasova & Shakrai's quad twist is from the more difficult axel entry. She steps forward while facing her partner. Wow.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=FB217D8807F71B4B

Since you don't see them every day, here's an axel entry triple twist by Valova and Vassiliev.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=01B5AD726C001308

The new COP changes cite a toe loop entry twist. I couldn't find one for the life of me, and would love to know who used to do one. The closest I could find was:

The Carruthers double lateral twist. Her takeoff and landing leg are the same, and she takes off more or less backward, so I guess that would make it a Loop twist (but no pick, so not a toe loop twist).

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=4331EABE3CE1517C

I'd like to know what all of you think about this? Personally, I'd rather see twists scored about the way they were last year.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Doris you seem to be quite the technophile too...i can't watch the clips while i'm at work because i'm blocked from "file stroage or sending" sites but i can't get .wmv files to play on my mac at home...any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Thank you Doris - both for the fantastic pairs news and clips and also for any technical advice since my knowledge relies very much on other friends!!!

I'll try the link when i get back home.

Thanks again

Ant
 

Fredegunda

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
To Ant:

You could also try the VLC media player, it is supposed to play files of all kinds although I think that I had some trouble trying to play wmv files. Normally I use Windows Media Player for Mac and it works fine.

Here is a link (I hope it works for you)
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/5758
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Hi Fredegunda - thanks a lot for the link - i'm going to try these all out when i get back home.

Ant
 

nothingbettertodo

Spectator
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Thanks

Doris, I was able to launch the video clip and you are dead on. You can tell that the team has no ability or skills, it's purely the size of the man that counts.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'm all for limiting the size of the man to the woman in Pairs. At least one could judge the throws and lifts on an equal basis and actually see who has the best without a WOW.

If you like the WOW, then advise Rena and John to break up,

Joe
 

76olympics

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Doris, this might be a little bit of a TJ , but have you seen the 1969 Nationals LP by the Kauffmans on FSvids? I hadn't ever seen footage of them before and it was very interesting to me. I do believe they had a twist, but no SBS jumps. The spin variations, though, were something to see ! (an inverted camel). And he did this move during the death spiral that I cannot even describe.. It is fun to compare how the skating elements have altered in form and style through the years.

It was a great skate though. I was really impressed!
 

Glory

Spectator
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Joesitz said:
I'm all for limiting the size of the man to the woman in Pairs. At least one could judge the throws and lifts on an equal basis and actually see who has the best without a WOW.

If you like the WOW, then advise Rena and John to break up,

Joe

Maybe instead of Jon and Rena breaking up we should take back the Olympic medals from Gordeyeva and Grinkov, Salle and Pelletier, Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, and Shen and Zhao because they all had an unfair size advantage against their competitors.
 
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nothingbettertodo

Spectator
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Instead of everyone criticizing teams with a large size difference, perhaps we should be applauding them for catching on to what the European and Asian teams have been successful at for years.

The fact of the matter is, without a significant size difference between the male and female in a pair team the majority of teams will struggle with the more difficult pair elements (lifts, twists and throws). I recently read an article by John Zimmerman in which he discusses finding the right partner. He stated in this article that the optimal difference in height for pairs is around 12 inches.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
nothingbettertodo said:
Instead of everyone criticizing teams with a large size difference, perhaps we should be applauding them for catching on to what the European and Asian teams have been successful at for years.

The fact of the matter is, without a significant size difference between the male and female in a pair team the majority of teams will struggle with the more difficult pair elements (lifts, twists and throws). I recently read an article by John Zimmerman in which he discusses finding the right partner. He stated in this article that the optimal difference in height for pairs is around 12 inches.
:clap: :clap:
I mean look who Zimmerman is skating with now. And why can't they take the size variations into consideration. It almost seems like a "promotion of anorexia" for the ladies and insulting to the gentleman under 5'10 to me - well to a point anyway. Some what serious but not so much without some understanding of the "whys."
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Well, Joe's right-this particular version of the rules is going to be very hard for John & Rena to equal their fourth place finish of this year, even with a perfect skate.

Their 3ATh (and when I think how hard this must be, considering no one else can do it, and John is a small guy for pairs), is now only +2 over the field rather than +2.5 (because of the bump to the 3FTh), or +5 overall.

And they had a level 4 on the death spiral that's being ditched, another small gain lost over the field.

The best they can manage on a twist is going to be their choice of a double twist level 4, maybe from the axel entrance, which gets you an extra .3 or a triple twist level one (and saying a little prayer while doing it). The Chinese and O&S can all manage a quad twist now that there is an point advantage to doing them. I&B are going to take at least a 3 point hit overall right there.

They are certainly going to have to go back to doing 3T's in the short, as well as the long.

Looks like they have to go for the quad throw that their coach suggested. I wonder which one they'll pick? Rena's loop is rather better than her salchow.
Possibly the quad toe throw that Ding & Ren used to do?

Well, it will be interesting.

This isn't going to be that wonderful a set of rules for Dube and Davison either.

And the point I was making is not that teams should be penalized for being mismatched; I just wanted them not to be quite so rewarded for being mismatched. You're going to have novices who can do a quad twist and seniors who can't. And something is very wrong with that picture.
 

nothingbettertodo

Spectator
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Isn't the whole point to have a strong well balanced program? It is great that John and Rena have a throw triple axel and the should be justly rewarded for it just as the Chinese teams should be rewarded for the quad twist.

I believe that two of the Novice pair teams at Liberty did have huge triple twists which they got absolutely no credit for under the new rules. I question whether or not that is any more fair since they obviously both have the talent and skill to do the element, especially since triple jumps and triple throws are still allowed at this level. Why is it ok to reward a throw or a jump, but not a twist? I would also question whether or not these teams are mismatched if they are equally or more capable of completing the elements required at their level. One might say that a team that does not have an adequate enough difference in height and weight to allow them to complete the elements necessary at any given level are more of a mismatch than a team with a larger difference in height and weight.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes. They did. When the guy can throw the girl that effortlessly, he can initiate the twist and count roses while he waits for her to come down. It far reduces the need for timing or anything other than sheer power.

As to I&B, just saying that's probably how they'll do under these new rules. but it will be interesting to see what they and Oppegard come up with. I am not advocating that they win just because they have a 3ATh, only that it's more like 3.0 harder than a 3Fth or a 3Sth. Most senior pairs have a 3Loop throw. And any pairs that tried a lutz or flip throw seem to find them no harder than a 3 Loop throw. (in fact easier, because of the toe assist) If not, they would not have done a 3Fth in the short).
 

nothingbettertodo

Spectator
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Can you clarify your position on this whole size thing. Are you angry that the US is developing teams that can do these elements which will allow them to be competitive against European and Asian teams (something I asked a few comments ago).
 
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pathetic sk8r mom

Spectator
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
:rofl: Now I do not know pairs very well but being at liberty and seeing the novice pairs event the teams with the smaller girls looked great! And it look as if it took a great deal of effort to do the lifts and twists. May be it is not that the girls are to small may be it is that the girls now are to big! I would have loved to have seen a video clip of a bigger team trying to do that nice of a twist.
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
nothingbettertodo said:
I believe that two of the Novice pair teams at Liberty did have huge triple twists which they got absolutely no credit for under the new rules.
What do you mean by "absolutely no credit"?
 
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