What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP?? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP??

nothingbettertodo

Spectator
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
I was told that both teams received "0"points for their triple twists as they were no longer allowed at the Novice level. Again I question why a triple jump or triple throw is still allowed but not a triple twist? shouldn't each team be judged on what they can do best regardless of size.
 
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Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
nothingbettertodo said:
I was told that both teams received "0"points for their triple twists as they were not longer allowed at the Novice level.
Interesting, thanks. Did they receive credit/points for the triple twist at the Broadmoor Open in June?
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
The USFSA's 2006-07 Pairs Element Requirements chart at:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2006_07_Pair_FS_Requirements_v3_0712061 _3_51.pdf
(published online AFTER Liberty) says "single or double" twist lift for Novice Pairs.

ISU Communication No. 1397 (Guidelines for Novice Competitions, Single and Pair Skating) at
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-177064-194282-109219-0-file,00.pdf
says that Novice pairs must include one twist lift in the FS but doesn't say "single or double" like it does in the SP. Does anyone know where in the revised ISU rules does it state that triple twist lifts are not allowed in Novice? Or is this a rule change specific to the USFSA?
 
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youhavenoclue

Spectator
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
First of all I'd like to say that Doris "you have no clue" :rock: on what your talking about when you speak of the twist. It takes an incredible amount of timing to do a big twist. If these little girls weren't doing their job correctly then they would become dead weight for the guy and I have yet to see a guy be able to explode a twist without correct timing and effort on both parts. I seen big guys not be able to do big twist having small partners because of their lack of timing and technique. The other thing you have to remember is that a team with a smaller size difference, as seen in several teams in liberty, struggled more to complete pair elements and fell on lifts. Not only does it become difficult but it becomes a safety issue. All in all, it takes more than just a small girl and a big guy to do what these teams are doing. :agree:
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
I think there are better ways of expressing opinions with out resorting to insults and snide comments. I do respect that you expressed your opinion "youhavenoclue" but it is distracting to read thru the negativity.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Nothing any of these skaters do is easy, by the time they are on the national level, even at the novice national level.

Of course, all these stunts take decent timing. And yes, you are right that you can get a big guy that's totally unable to do them.

I'm not disgusted about anything but the continual changing of the COP scoring in pairs, and the relative scores for some elements.

But any skill (lutz entry triple twist, probably level 3 at least) which 3 novice pairs at a club competition can do, is not as hard, for example, as a side by side triple flip jump, which is very seldom seen (5.5 points), which is what it scores in the COP this year. 4.5 was about right for the twist, if 5.5 is right for the flip. (The only pair I remember who consistently landed SBS triple flip was Yamaguchi and Galindo. There are a of couple pairs who have done SBS triple lutz, but you couldn't call any of them consistent with it).

I'm not the one that wanted size restrictions placed on pairs. I just want the base levels to reflect the relative difficulty correctly. And I would prefer that triple twists not be allowed in the short program.

US figure skating has always paired tiny girls with big guys, but little girls grow, unless you starve them. They go from 60 pounds to 90 or 100 pounds. And the pairs break up. You can say the guy didn't grow enough or the girl is too big, either way. I would rather that the rules didn't go out of the way to make larger size differences a requirement to compete at the highest levels. In a few years, at least 2 of those novice girls won't be doing that triple twist. With these rules, 75 lbs is probably going to be the effective limit for a pair girl.

And on lifts-a more evenly matched pair can get compensate with great skill and timing-check out old videos of Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner. That does not seem to be the case with twists.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Glory said:
Maybe instead of Jon and Rena breaking up we should take back the Olympic medals from Gordeyeva and Grinkov, Salle and Pelletier, Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, and Shen and Zhao because they all had an unfair size advantage against their competitors.
Well, those teams of variable height you mentioned did win. Didn't they? Now how many teams of similar height have won?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
youhavenoclue said:
... The other thing you have to remember is that a team with a smaller size difference, as seen in several teams in liberty, struggled more to complete pair elements and fell on lifts. Not only does it become difficult but it becomes a safety issue. All in all, it takes more than just a small girl and a big guy to do what these teams are doing. :agree:
That is my point on the extreme difference in height. The smaller size difference struggled.

I'm thinking now that instead of limiting the height difference, that it would be wiser to discourage pairs who do not have the extreme height difference. For me, that is esthetically uninteresting but for acrobatics it works fine.

Joe

BTW, I'm the one who finds the height difference more acrobatic than Doris, so snarky remarks should go to me.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
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Country
United-States
Tai and Randy were about the last ones to win Worlds. Selezneva and Makarov won Europeans at least once, and they were closer in size.

I was quite pleased with last year's version of COP, because if a couple couldn't do the twists, they could dig their way out of the hole in other ways, but with the new rules, we may be going back to the situation where the size difference has to be huge for the pair to win.

We'll see.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
DORISPULASKI said:
Most senior pairs have a 3Loop throw. And any pairs that tried a lutz or flip throw seem to find them no harder than a 3 Loop throw. (in fact easier, because of the toe assist) If not, they would not have done a 3Fth in the short).

Obertas/Slavnov seem to be the only ones who are doing both throw loop and throw flip in the long program. Maybe they do the flip in the short because they find the flip easier, or maybe they think it will get them more attention, even if not more points, just because it's more unusual.

Who else were you thinking of?

Orscher/Lucash and Savchenko/Szolkowy were doing throw salchow and throw flip. Unless they're going to spend extra training time on maintaining a third throw, their choice is to do either the salchow or the flip in the short. O/L chose the flip, S/S the salchow.

I wouldn't attribute twist skill entirely to size difference. E.g., Elena Berezhnaya always had a huge double twist both with Shliakhov and with Sikharulidze, who was taller, but she never really mastered the triple. The rotation obviously takes additional skill in addition to being thrown high enough.

The novice teams at Liberty who were closer in size and/or lower in overall skill level were struggling with single twists. Senior teams of similar size can do adequate (or better) double twists. Skill matters too.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
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Country
United-States
The question I'm asking here is whether the flip throw is easier or harder than the loop throw.

Because of the lack of point difference, not a lot of pairs last year were doing the flip throw, just as you say, so the sample size is very small. O&L, S&S, and O&S did the flip and only O&S did both loop and flip, to my knowledge, at the World level. In lower level US competition, Mayne & Burgess did the flip and loop, Jordan and Barrett did a 3Fth and 3lzth at US Nationals and got credit for both, and AFAIR, Denney & Barrett did the same at Liberty, although I don't know whether they got credit for both.

If they're going to give credit for both the flip & lutz throws, I wish they would use different symbols for them. And if they regard them as interchangeable, then you shouldn't be able to repeat them, or you should be able to repeat other throws in the LP.

If O&L and S&S found the loop easier than the flip, they would have done the flip and loop in the long for the extra 0.5 points. The fact that they didn't tends to support a belief that they found the flip easier than the loop, not harder. Jordan and Barrett did the flip and lutz in the long, avoiding the loop entirely.

The flip in SP would be that given the ability to do either a salcow or a flip, the flip counts higher, so of course S&S and O&L did the flip. For O&S, given that flip and loop used to count the same, they chose to do the flip in the short, tends to support that they find the flip the easier of the two skills.

At Liberty, some of the FL contingent were doing a flip throw and a lutz throw in the LP. I'm not sure if that's now legal, and haven't seen the protocols to know whether they got credit for both skills.

So I tend to believe the flip is as easy (or as hard, whichever) as the loop, and I will be interested to see whether teams immediately drop the loop or salchow to add the flip, now that it is worth more.

And I would welcome other opinions on the subject.
 
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Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
DORISPULASKI said:
The question I'm asking here is whether the flip throw is easier or harder than the loop throw.
....
And I would welcome other opinions on the subject.

I have no opinion on whether the flip throw is easier than the loop throw. I _do_ have an opinion that the throw flip is an awkward looking move that I've yet to see done gracefully. I would gladly never see another. It's another example of COP rewarding ugly but 'difficult' skating rather than good skating (also see positions, spin).
The throw loop and throw salchow are lots more aesthetically pleasing to me ymmv.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Mafke, I agree on that! One flip throw per program is more than enough for me. I surely don't want to see 2 .
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
In a related vein, I don't like encouraging quad twists either. Triple twists are often ungainly enough. I would be in favor of allowing quad twists if crashy landings were penalized enough (in other words a crashy landing ends up getting less points than a well executed catch set-down with one fewer rotation). Alas, the geniuses behind COP don't seem to know how to do that (or the judges won't cooperate, one or ther other or both).
 

youhavenoclue

Spectator
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
I hate to hear discrimination about little girls ust because of their height. The novice national champions, Jessica Paetsch and Jon Nuss were talked about very badly on some of the other message boards because of their size diference, and everyone posting those comments failed to see how talented Jessica really is. At the Broadmoor Open I witnessed her do a huge throw triple salchow and throw triple loop in practice.
Obviously I realize how difficult it is to do a side-by-side triple flips. But I think this is a pointless question considering our senior national champions struggle to do triple toes. Times have changed, and under the NJS every element is important.
 

getalife

Spectator
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
I have enjoyed reading the debates concerning the single/double/triple twists for the Novice pair teams. First, both teams did have triple twists at Broadmoor and were given credit for them (this can be confirmed on line). Both teams did the same programs at Liberty and received ZERO credit for their efforts. The rules changed within those 2 weeks. There were only 2 Novice teams that had triple twists. The 3rd team that had a triple twist was Brubacker/McLaughlin at Junior, and it was beautiful.

The article that was referred to by John Zimmerman was published in the August issue of International Figure Skating. John states that "Height is a factor. The more significant the difference in height between the two skaters, the more options the team has to create elements". His second point is that strength, in the male AND the female, is critical. And finally he says "Never be satisfied with your current abilities". Which means, always try to learn more, do more. All of these points were in an article titled Shopping for a Pairs Partner. If I read most of the comments posted correctly, some of you are disagreeing with someone that has skated pairs, very successfully, for many, many years.

To say that something is wrong with a picture when a Novice team can do something that a Senior team team can't is ludicrous. There are Juv skaters that can do beautiful double axels and Novice skaters that can't. There are Intermediate skaters that have incredible triples and Juniors that don't. Is there something wrong with that picture? Do they need to be judged differently? More equally?

All of the kids/people in this sport are in it to succeed to the highest level that they are capable of. That is different for every skater. To try and put limits on them is what would be wrong with the picture. If when choosing a partner the male and his coach choose a girl that is smaller, in my opinion, that is wise picking (as long as she has talent). Why would you choose someone almost almost your height or weight???? I watched all of the Novice, Junior, and Senior pairs teams at Liberty. While none of those girls were "big" in the true sense of the word, some were too big for what they were trying to do. That is not a bad thing, but why try to slam the teams that have aligned themselves correctly?

Finally, figure skating is one of the hardest sports around, singles, pairs or dance. It has also always been one of the "unfairest" because it is so subjective. If people do not like the way it is judged because their daughter isn't as small, or their son isn't as big, then maybe they should play basketball or soccer or some sport that if the ball goes thru the hoop, you get a point. No body is there to judge, during a competition, or on one of these message boards.
 

omygod

Spectator
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
pathetic sk8r mom said:
:rofl: Now I do not know pairs very well but being at liberty and seeing the novice pairs event the teams with the smaller girls looked great! And it look as if it took a great deal of effort to do the lifts and twists. May be it is not that the girls are to small may be it is that the girls now are to big! I would have loved to have seen a video clip of a bigger team trying to do that nice of a twist.

:clap:
 
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