Isn't the whole point to have a strong well balanced program? It is great that John and Rena have a throw triple axel and the should be justly rewarded for it just as the Chinese teams should be rewarded for the quad twist.
I believe that two of the Novice pair teams at Liberty did have huge triple twists which they got absolutely no credit for under the new rules. I question whether or not that is any more fair since they obviously both have the talent and skill to do the element, especially since triple jumps and triple throws are still allowed at this level. Why is it ok to reward a throw or a jump, but not a twist? I would also question whether or not these teams are mismatched if they are equally or more capable of completing the elements required at their level. One might say that a team that does not have an adequate enough difference in height and weight to allow them to complete the elements necessary at any given level are more of a mismatch than a team with a larger difference in height and weight.
Last edited by nothingbettertodo; 07-29-2006 at 10:08 PM.
Wicked Yankee Girl
Yes. They did. When the guy can throw the girl that effortlessly, he can initiate the twist and count roses while he waits for her to come down. It far reduces the need for timing or anything other than sheer power.
As to I&B, just saying that's probably how they'll do under these new rules. but it will be interesting to see what they and Oppegard come up with. I am not advocating that they win just because they have a 3ATh, only that it's more like 3.0 harder than a 3Fth or a 3Sth. Most senior pairs have a 3Loop throw. And any pairs that tried a lutz or flip throw seem to find them no harder than a 3 Loop throw. (in fact easier, because of the toe assist) If not, they would not have done a 3Fth in the short).
Can you clarify your position on this whole size thing. Are you angry that the US is developing teams that can do these elements which will allow them to be competitive against European and Asian teams (something I asked a few comments ago).
Last edited by nothingbettertodo; 07-29-2006 at 10:33 PM.
Now I do not know pairs very well but being at liberty and seeing the novice pairs event the teams with the smaller girls looked great! And it look as if it took a great deal of effort to do the lifts and twists. May be it is not that the girls are to small may be it is that the girls now are to big! I would have loved to have seen a video clip of a bigger team trying to do that nice of a twist.
What do you mean by "absolutely no credit"?
Originally Posted by nothingbettertodo
I was told that both teams received "0"points for their triple twists as they were no longer allowed at the Novice level. Again I question why a triple jump or triple throw is still allowed but not a triple twist? shouldn't each team be judged on what they can do best regardless of size.
Last edited by nothingbettertodo; 07-29-2006 at 10:44 PM.
Interesting, thanks. Did they receive credit/points for the triple twist at the Broadmoor Open in June?
Originally Posted by nothingbettertodo
I would have to believe they did, or why would they do it at Liberty?
The USFSA's 2006-07 Pairs Element Requirements chart at:
(published online AFTER Liberty) says "single or double" twist lift for Novice Pairs.
ISU Communication No. 1397 (Guidelines for Novice Competitions, Single and Pair Skating) at
says that Novice pairs must include one twist lift in the FS but doesn't say "single or double" like it does in the SP. Does anyone know where in the revised ISU rules does it state that triple twist lifts are not allowed in Novice? Or is this a rule change specific to the USFSA?
Last edited by Sylvia; 07-29-2006 at 10:58 PM.
First of all I'd like to say that Doris "you have no clue" on what your talking about when you speak of the twist. It takes an incredible amount of timing to do a big twist. If these little girls weren't doing their job correctly then they would become dead weight for the guy and I have yet to see a guy be able to explode a twist without correct timing and effort on both parts. I seen big guys not be able to do big twist having small partners because of their lack of timing and technique. The other thing you have to remember is that a team with a smaller size difference, as seen in several teams in liberty, struggled more to complete pair elements and fell on lifts. Not only does it become difficult but it becomes a safety issue. All in all, it takes more than just a small girl and a big guy to do what these teams are doing.
Finally someone who knows what they are talking about I completely agree
MY TVC 1 5
I think there are better ways of expressing opinions with out resorting to insults and snide comments. I do respect that you expressed your opinion "youhavenoclue" but it is distracting to read thru the negativity.
I'm a pair skater and just read your post. I completely agree!!!!! Rock on
Wicked Yankee Girl
Nothing any of these skaters do is easy, by the time they are on the national level, even at the novice national level.
Of course, all these stunts take decent timing. And yes, you are right that you can get a big guy that's totally unable to do them.
I'm not disgusted about anything but the continual changing of the COP scoring in pairs, and the relative scores for some elements.
But any skill (lutz entry triple twist, probably level 3 at least) which 3 novice pairs at a club competition can do, is not as hard, for example, as a side by side triple flip jump, which is very seldom seen (5.5 points), which is what it scores in the COP this year. 4.5 was about right for the twist, if 5.5 is right for the flip. (The only pair I remember who consistently landed SBS triple flip was Yamaguchi and Galindo. There are a of couple pairs who have done SBS triple lutz, but you couldn't call any of them consistent with it).
I'm not the one that wanted size restrictions placed on pairs. I just want the base levels to reflect the relative difficulty correctly. And I would prefer that triple twists not be allowed in the short program.
US figure skating has always paired tiny girls with big guys, but little girls grow, unless you starve them. They go from 60 pounds to 90 or 100 pounds. And the pairs break up. You can say the guy didn't grow enough or the girl is too big, either way. I would rather that the rules didn't go out of the way to make larger size differences a requirement to compete at the highest levels. In a few years, at least 2 of those novice girls won't be doing that triple twist. With these rules, 75 lbs is probably going to be the effective limit for a pair girl.
And on lifts-a more evenly matched pair can get compensate with great skill and timing-check out old videos of Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner. That does not seem to be the case with twists.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 07-30-2006 at 05:53 AM.
Well, those teams of variable height you mentioned did win. Didn't they? Now how many teams of similar height have won?
Originally Posted by Glory