What are all these new Pairs' Twists in COP??

[Joesitz]

... The other thing you have to remember is that a team with a smaller size difference, as seen in several teams in liberty, struggled more to complete pair elements and fell on lifts. Not only does it become difficult but it becomes a safety issue. All in all, it takes more than just a small girl and a big guy to do what these teams are doing.

That is my point on the extreme difference in height. The smaller size difference struggled.

I'm thinking now that instead of limiting the height difference, that it would be wiser to discourage pairs who do not have the extreme height difference. For me, that is esthetically uninteresting but for acrobatics it works fine.

Joe

BTW, I'm the one who finds the height difference more acrobatic than Doris, so snarky remarks should go to me.

[dorispulaski]

Tai and Randy were about the last ones to win Worlds. Selezneva and Makarov won Europeans at least once, and they were closer in size.

I was quite pleased with last year's version of COP, because if a couple couldn't do the twists, they could dig their way out of the hole in other ways, but with the new rules, we may be going back to the situation where the size difference has to be huge for the pair to win.

We'll see.

[gkelly]

Most senior pairs have a 3Loop throw. And any pairs that tried a lutz or flip throw seem to find them no harder than a 3 Loop throw. (in fact easier, because of the toe assist) If not, they would not have done a 3Fth in the short).

Obertas/Slavnov seem to be the only ones who are doing both throw loop and throw flip in the long program. Maybe they do the flip in the short because they find the flip easier, or maybe they think it will get them more attention, even if not more points, just because it's more unusual.

Who else were you thinking of?

Orscher/Lucash and Savchenko/Szolkowy were doing throw salchow and throw flip. Unless they're going to spend extra training time on maintaining a third throw, their choice is to do either the salchow or the flip in the short. O/L chose the flip, S/S the salchow.

I wouldn't attribute twist skill entirely to size difference. E.g., Elena Berezhnaya always had a huge double twist both with Shliakhov and with Sikharulidze, who was taller, but she never really mastered the triple. The rotation obviously takes additional skill in addition to being thrown high enough.

The novice teams at Liberty who were closer in size and/or lower in overall skill level were struggling with single twists. Senior teams of similar size can do adequate (or better) double twists. Skill matters too.

[dorispulaski]

The question I'm asking here is whether the flip throw is easier or harder than the loop throw.

Because of the lack of point difference, not a lot of pairs last year were doing the flip throw, just as you say, so the sample size is very small. O&L, S&S, and O&S did the flip and only O&S did both loop and flip, to my knowledge, at the World level. In lower level US competition, Mayne & Burgess did the flip and loop, Jordan and Barrett did a 3Fth and 3lzth at US Nationals and got credit for both, and AFAIR, Denney & Barrett did the same at Liberty, although I don't know whether they got credit for both.

If they're going to give credit for both the flip & lutz throws, I wish they would use different symbols for them. And if they regard them as interchangeable, then you shouldn't be able to repeat them, or you should be able to repeat other throws in the LP.

If O&L and S&S found the loop easier than the flip, they would have done the flip and loop in the long for the extra 0.5 points. The fact that they didn't tends to support a belief that they found the flip easier than the loop, not harder. Jordan and Barrett did the flip and lutz in the long, avoiding the loop entirely.

The flip in SP would be that given the ability to do either a salcow or a flip, the flip counts higher, so of course S&S and O&L did the flip. For O&S, given that flip and loop used to count the same, they chose to do the flip in the short, tends to support that they find the flip the easier of the two skills.

At Liberty, some of the FL contingent were doing a flip throw and a lutz throw in the LP. I'm not sure if that's now legal, and haven't seen the protocols to know whether they got credit for both skills.

So I tend to believe the flip is as easy (or as hard, whichever) as the loop, and I will be interested to see whether teams immediately drop the loop or salchow to add the flip, now that it is worth more.

And I would welcome other opinions on the subject.

[Mafke]

The question I'm asking here is whether the flip throw is easier or harder than the loop throw.
....
And I would welcome other opinions on the subject.

I have no opinion on whether the flip throw is easier than the loop throw. I _do_ have an opinion that the throw flip is an awkward looking move that I've yet to see done gracefully. I would gladly never see another. It's another example of COP rewarding ugly but 'difficult' skating rather than good skating (also see positions, spin).
The throw loop and throw salchow are lots more aesthetically pleasing to me ymmv.

[dorispulaski]

Mafke, I agree on that! One flip throw per program is more than enough for me. I surely don't want to see 2 .

[Mafke]

In a related vein, I don't like encouraging quad twists either. Triple twists are often ungainly enough. I would be in favor of allowing quad twists if crashy landings were penalized enough (in other words a crashy landing ends up getting less points than a well executed catch set-down with one fewer rotation). Alas, the geniuses behind COP don't seem to know how to do that (or the judges won't cooperate, one or ther other or both).

[youhavenoclue]

I hate to hear discrimination about little girls ust because of their height. The novice national champions, Jessica Paetsch and Jon Nuss were talked about very badly on some of the other message boards because of their size diference, and everyone posting those comments failed to see how talented Jessica really is. At the Broadmoor Open I witnessed her do a huge throw triple salchow and throw triple loop in practice.
Obviously I realize how difficult it is to do a side-by-side triple flips. But I think this is a pointless question considering our senior national champions struggle to do triple toes. Times have changed, and under the NJS every element is important.

[getalife]

I have enjoyed reading the debates concerning the single/double/triple twists for the Novice pair teams. First, both teams did have triple twists at Broadmoor and were given credit for them (this can be confirmed on line). Both teams did the same programs at Liberty and received ZERO credit for their efforts. The rules changed within those 2 weeks. There were only 2 Novice teams that had triple twists. The 3rd team that had a triple twist was Brubacker/McLaughlin at Junior, and it was beautiful.

The article that was referred to by John Zimmerman was published in the August issue of International Figure Skating. John states that "Height is a factor. The more significant the difference in height between the two skaters, the more options the team has to create elements". His second point is that strength, in the male AND the female, is critical. And finally he says "Never be satisfied with your current abilities". Which means, always try to learn more, do more. All of these points were in an article titled Shopping for a Pairs Partner. If I read most of the comments posted correctly, some of you are disagreeing with someone that has skated pairs, very successfully, for many, many years.

To say that something is wrong with a picture when a Novice team can do something that a Senior team team can't is ludicrous. There are Juv skaters that can do beautiful double axels and Novice skaters that can't. There are Intermediate skaters that have incredible triples and Juniors that don't. Is there something wrong with that picture? Do they need to be judged differently? More equally?

All of the kids/people in this sport are in it to succeed to the highest level that they are capable of. That is different for every skater. To try and put limits on them is what would be wrong with the picture. If when choosing a partner the male and his coach choose a girl that is smaller, in my opinion, that is wise picking (as long as she has talent). Why would you choose someone almost almost your height or weight???? I watched all of the Novice, Junior, and Senior pairs teams at Liberty. While none of those girls were "big" in the true sense of the word, some were too big for what they were trying to do. That is not a bad thing, but why try to slam the teams that have aligned themselves correctly?

Finally, figure skating is one of the hardest sports around, singles, pairs or dance. It has also always been one of the "unfairest" because it is so subjective. If people do not like the way it is judged because their daughter isn't as small, or their son isn't as big, then maybe they should play basketball or soccer or some sport that if the ball goes thru the hoop, you get a point. No body is there to judge, during a competition, or on one of these message boards.

[omygod]

Now I do not know pairs very well but being at liberty and seeing the novice pairs event the teams with the smaller girls looked great! And it look as if it took a great deal of effort to do the lifts and twists. May be it is not that the girls are to small may be it is that the girls now are to big! I would have loved to have seen a video clip of a bigger team trying to do that nice of a twist.

[antmanb]

Sadly mac died at the weekend before i could try any of these helpful hints...seems like a loose connection to me because the computer keeps cutting out when i move it, or type!!! As soon as it comes back from the hospital i'll let you know how successful i am at viewing!

Ant

[antmanb]

Their 3ATh (and when I think how hard this must be, considering no one else can do it, and John is a small guy for pairs), is now only +2 over the field rather than +2.5 (because of the bump to the 3FTh), or +5 overall.

But i have to say overall i agree with the 3FTh being upgraded because i thought it was ridiculous to have it on the same tariff as a throw triple loop when it is so much harder than the throw triple loop. It is a shame for John and Rena and maybe the throw 3A should have been given a greater tariff too.

The Chinese and O&S can all manage a quad twist now that there is an point advantage to doing them. I&B are going to take at least a 3 point hit overall right there.

Can the chinese pairs do quad twists? I don't think i'd heard that - is it both Pang & Tong and the Zhangs that can do this? I'm guessing that Shen and Zhoa can't.

They are certainly going to have to go back to doing 3T's in the short, as well as the long.

Am i misremembering my US pairs or weren't John and Rena the skaters that were doing SBS 3 Lutzes at some point? The pair i'm thinking of could do them separately and the lady in the pair was the one that nearly always landed them and it was the man that seemed to have more of psychological problem landing it SBS - was this them? If so why not put those back in as well as trying the triple toes?

Looks like they have to go for the quad throw that their coach suggested. I wonder which one they'll pick? Rena's loop is rather better than her salchow.
Possibly the quad toe throw that Ding & Ren used to do?

Have they been training a quad or is it something that their coach has suggested they need to advance onto the podium?

Ant

[antmanb]

The question I'm asking here is whether the flip throw is easier or harder than the loop throw.

Because of the lack of point difference, not a lot of pairs last year were doing the flip throw, just as you say, so the sample size is very small. O&L, S&S, and O&S did the flip and only O&S did both loop and flip, to my knowledge, at the World level. In lower level US competition, Mayne & Burgess did the flip and loop, Jordan and Barrett did a 3Fth and 3lzth at US Nationals and got credit for both, and AFAIR, Denney & Barrett did the same at Liberty, although I don't know whether they got credit for both.

If they're going to give credit for both the flip & lutz throws, I wish they would use different symbols for them. And if they regard them as interchangeable, then you shouldn't be able to repeat them, or you should be able to repeat other throws in the LP.

If O&L and S&S found the loop easier than the flip, they would have done the flip and loop in the long for the extra 0.5 points. The fact that they didn't tends to support a belief that they found the flip easier than the loop, not harder. Jordan and Barrett did the flip and lutz in the long, avoiding the loop entirely.

The flip in SP would be that given the ability to do either a salcow or a flip, the flip counts higher, so of course S&S and O&L did the flip. For O&S, given that flip and loop used to count the same, they chose to do the flip in the short, tends to support that they find the flip the easier of the two skills.

At Liberty, some of the FL contingent were doing a flip throw and a lutz throw in the LP. I'm not sure if that's now legal, and haven't seen the protocols to know whether they got credit for both skills.

So I tend to believe the flip is as easy (or as hard, whichever) as the loop, and I will be interested to see whether teams immediately drop the loop or salchow to add the flip, now that it is worth more.

And I would welcome other opinions on the subject.

On this Flip and Loop thing - with O&S i thought the throw triple loop was newer to them than the throw triple flip? I might be misremembering but i thought they'd had throw triple sal or throw triple toe as their other throw until fairly recently which might explain why they have the throw triple flip in the SP if its more secure because they've been doing it for longer

I expect every pair is different and the preferences for the flip or loop must be similar to those singles skaters who prefer either toe or edge jumps. My perception of the throw jumps is that thrown edge jumps generally are easier to execute than thrown toe jumps because edge jumps are more truly "thrown" than the toe jumps which tend to be more of an assist. The technique required for the flip is quite awkward in terms of getting the pick in and lift without the partner getting in the way or hindering the jump (to my mind the most awkward thrown jump of all is the toe loop). Compared to the loop which looks like its much easier given the position of the lady doesn't tend to change from preparation through to take off, flight and landing. Also, unlike the throw triple flip, pretty much the entire first revolution of the throw triple loop (and salchow) is completed while the partners are still touching and lifting into the throw.

To me it looks harder and seems like it is harder on paper, but i don't have first hand experience of talking with pairs who actually try these throw jumps...none of the young pairs at my rink do any thrown toe jumps they all do edge jumps (and at most as singles and doubles).

Ant

[antmanb]

The article that was referred to by John Zimmerman was published in the August issue of International Figure Skating. John states that "Height is a factor. The more significant the difference in height between the two skaters, the more options the team has to create elements". His second point is that strength, in the male AND the female, is critical. And finally he says "Never be satisfied with your current abilities". Which means, always try to learn more, do more. All of these points were in an article titled Shopping for a Pairs Partner. If I read most of the comments posted correctly, some of you are disagreeing with someone that has skated pairs, very successfully, for many, many years.

I don't think anyone is questioning that John is correct in saying a greater hieght/size difference between the partners leads to greater options/more difficult elements being executed. I think any ciriticisms are that the rules as they are currently drafted are encouraging the size differential in partners that some people find aesthetically unattractive in pairs skating. I think a connected criticism is that the only reason some young novice couples do well competitively is because of the height/size difference which leads to partnerships splitting when the pairs' body shape changes.

The criticism of this isn't a personal criticism of the teams, i think it is more of a lamenting that the rules are encouraging skaters to get together based purely on size differences which allow them to do acrobatic elements that attract higher tariffs which some might view as more acrobatic than skating skill related, when it might be better to encourage partners to get together young and stay together to develop that pairs ESP that so many teams lack and allow it to develop so that if a size difference advantage starts to disappear as the partners grow up, they are not forced to split up to find bigger/smaller partners just to get the big throw triples and twists done.

Teams that get credit for things like big twists and throws don't get as penalised for not being able to have a nice line and unison when doing simple stroking, or perhaps don't get dinged as badly for having SBS jumps/spins that are out of unison because of the size differential between the partners.

I think it would be a more level palying field if unison and true pairs skating were rewarded as much as the big tricks so that a partnership could make the conscious decision to either have a big height/size difference to max out on the big tricks, or have a more similar sizing to allow for greater unison and nicely timed indentically executed elements (like SBS triples and difficult spins). In reality i think they'd gravitate towards a more medium road which i think would be preferable.

Again alot of it is aesthetics, but i'm pretty sure no-one on this thread was bashing or slamming particular skaters, just the scoring system for advocating certain things.

Ant

[dorispulaski]

ant, You represented what I felt about this much better than I could do. Thank you. I would prefer for the widest possible assortment of sizes of people to be able to compete in pairs, and I would definitely like COP to be defined so as far as possible, there is an even playing field for all. I certainly never meant to denigrate any particular teams.

On this Flip and Loop thing - with O&S i thought the throw triple loop was newer to them than the throw triple flip? I might be misremembering but i thought they'd had throw triple sal or throw triple toe as their other throw until fairly recently which might explain why they have the throw triple flip in the SP if its more secure because they've been doing it for longer

This one, I may know the answer to. At Worlds 2003, Obertas was skating with Sokolov. At Cup of Russia 2003, she was skating with Slavnov and they did
3Fth in the SP and the 3LpTh and 3FTh in the LP. So they seem to have known both skills pretty much for their whole career together. (This is one of the joys of COP--you can look up what everyone was doing back in the 2003 Grand Prix.)

The whole business of assigning tariffs to skills very few teams (or even no teams) have done is one of the black magic pieces of COP, given that any particular team may not be very representative.

I am suspecting that the flip is about the same as the loop because of the height assist you get from the toe pick. But we'll definitely see!

Have they been training a quad or is it something that their coach has suggested they need to advance onto the podium?

I don't know whether they're actually training it--but Oppegard said when interviewed that he thought she had a quad in her.