Campbell's format announced | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Campbell's format announced

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Am I the only one who finds Scott Smith and Lambiel have a similar skating style? I dont see why if he lands the same jumps they would not be scored similar since they have a similar style.
Well, I think there are two points to be made. First, they (Lambiel and Smith) don't have the same jump content in their programs. Comparing Scott's all-time best event, the 2005 Onreij Nepela (thanks, Sylvia :) ) to, for instance, Stephane's 2006 Worlds skate, the total base value for Scott's eight jumping passes is 56.4 and Stephane's (correcting for the disputed triple Axel) is 62.2.

Then there are the other elements. For the two step sequences Scott has a level 2 and a level 1, while Stephane has two level 3's.

They are about equal in the levels of their spins, but Lambiel -- perhaps the best spinner in the world -- picks up extra points in GOE.

Finally, as Chuckm keeps pointing out, the tech score is only half the battle. Figure skating is one of the few sports where it's not only what you do, it's how good you look doing it. :rock: Comparing the program component scores (skating skills, transitions, performance/execution, choreography, and interpretation) we have

Smith: 6.80, 6.20, 6.35, 6.45, 6.35
Labiel: 7.79, 7.68, 7.82, 7.79, 7.86

That's a whopping difference of about a point and a half across the board (and these differences are multiplied by 2 in the final scores for the LP), reflecting the judges opinions about the skaters' "style".

Like Joe says, it is starting to seem like everyone is picking on Scott on this thread. But that's not it at all. Lambiel is the two-time and defending world champion. He is very good!

BTW, it is an interesting point that in the Olympic LP, Lambiel (2 quads) and Lysacek (0 quads) came out about even. But this can be spun either way. Should Lysacek work on his quads, or should Lambiel work on the rest of his game?

MM :)
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
I don't recall Abbott ever landing a quad in competition? He is practicing quads, though. He's one of my favorite up-and-comers to watch ever since I saw him win the 2005 U.S. junior title in Portland. Abbott has a nice blend of technical and "artistic" abilities, and I'm really hoping this will be a good comeback season for him.
One of your mentions is probably where I heard of him! I'm glad he is as good as he looks. Re the quad, this is from his website. ??
Broadmoor Open [2005] was a good experience. I won the short program. I had absolutely no expectations going into Broadmoor, so winning the short was very exciting for me. I also won the Jump event later that day. I landed 2 triple axels, 2 triple flip triple toes, and a quad sal - the first I've ever attempted in competition!
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Mathman said:
BTW, it is an interesting point that in the Olympic LP, Lambiel (2 quads) and Lysacek (0 quads) came out about even. But this can be spun either way. Should Lysacek work on his quads, or should Lambiel work on the rest of his game?


Lambiel could have scored about 15 points higher without all his mistakes in the Oly free skate probably. He lost 10.5 points on the 3 jump errors alone. In the short his triple lutz had a +1.14 GOE, and his clean quad early in the long had a +1.00 I believe. He also would have gained more PCS scores without the errors. He probably could have scored around a 167 in the free skate. Even with the mistakes which badly marred the performance his PCS were higher then Evan's, as they always are, and rightfully so.

I know Plushenko had a 167, but he himself could have scored higher. Had he not doubled his last jump, and not front loaded his program losing bonus marks for putting some jumps laters he could have been close to a 175.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
That's my point. Stephane needs to work on those mistakes if he wants to keep his lead over Lysacek, Weir, Joubert, etc.

Well he has problems with jump consistency but so do Weir and Joubert the last year anyway. Weir and Joubert used to alot of clean programs but not anymore, Joubert did at the Worlds but until Worlds had not even done close to a clean long since Europeans last year.

Weir so poorly puts together the TES aspects of his program last year he might as well have fallen 3 times before he starts the program, hopefully for his sake his coach will drill into him this year he has to stick to the protocal of the routine. He actually did stick to the planned COP-programs often in 04-05 and did not do it last year, which does not make sense.

Lysacek is the only one of them with superior jump consistency, but the effort of mastering the quad and mantaining consistency with all the harder triples, while gaining consistency with the newfound quad is a big challenge.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Basic question: are Lambiel's jump problems related to his unstable knee? That knee is a continuing problem, despite two surgeries. Those who saw him at COI said he struggled even with spins. Not a good sign for the coming season.
 
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Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
One of your mentions is probably where I heard of him [Jeremy Abbott]! I'm glad he is as good as he looks. Re the quad, this is from his website. ??
OK, that's what I thought you were probably referring to! :) "Jumps" events at club competitions don't really count in my book as a "real comp." because the jumps are performed in isolation. To my knowledge, Abbott has yet to attempt a quad jump in a competition program, but he does have a solo triple toe as the opening jump of his new senior free skate (logical place for a possible quad attempt later in the season?). BTW, Abbott was just assigned to Finlandia Trophy (Senior B comp.) on the U.S. international assignments page today (updated 8/22). Sorry for the "thread drift"!
 

debdelilah

On the Ice
Joined
May 6, 2006
chuckm,

I read some reports that said Stephane struggled on spins, and others that he was fantastic in the spins. But it was a long tour, and it seemed like everyone was taking turns having their bad night. Even Evgeni had one report talking about him doing doubles--and others, of course, mentioning triple axels.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Re: Abbott -

Thanks for the clarification, Sylvia! I guess it was more of a semi-comp quad, but still obviously good for his confidence.

We need a "fingers-crossed" or "praying hands" smilie!
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It may be that as the 2006 US Champion, Sasha is contractually obligated to do Campbell's and the winter Marshall's (unless she is ill or injured, of course). Since she has not ruled out competing in the future, she probably wants to maintain a cordial relationship with the USFS.

Hmm...you could be right. I never thought of that. Of course, it's all about bringing in the audience and the viewers, which is important for the future of skating on TV.

I wonder if this (the format change) is a turning point and could mark the return of pro competitions.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I rememebr a time when RD used to stick up for Sasha all them time though...then someone called him on it and he started bashing her...in an attempt to play devils advocate??? :p

Ant

There were a lot more posters out there who continually laid into Cohen but no one said a word about it.

People used to call me a Sasha fan (just because I wasn't a Kwanfan, BTW) all the time. In fact you still hear many old-time posters joking about it now. (Want evidence? read the "russian name generator" thread) I do remember Cohen used to have a lot of detractors on this forum, so she didn't need one more. Now some folks consider some of the criticism I direct at her "bashing". Trust me, many posters have said much worse things about Cohen, often unchallenged. Now I can't even speak my mind about her without being labelled a "basher". My, how things change.
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
RD, it's not your criticizing Sasha that's the issue - it's the obsessiveness with which you go about it. I find it disturbing but that's JMO.

As to your history as a Sasha-defender (per Antman): :scratch: Wasn't here, wouldn't have guessed!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I dont see why if he lands the same jumps they would not be scored similar since they have a similar style. I admit to being more new to figure skating though, and I am still learning. I just find they look like they skate in a similar way.

What do you mean by "similar style" or "in a similar way"?

In general, the scores will be based more on *how well* a given skater performs a his or her style of skating than what that style happens to be.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-152055-169271-nav-list,00.html

See JS 07 and JS 08A for criteria used for assigning program component scores.

The guidelines for the grades of execution aren't as easily available in their own document. I can find you a link if you're interested though.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
As to your history as a Sasha-defender (per Antman): :scratch: Wasn't here, wouldn't have guessed!

It's blown out of proportion by the posters. The only thing I might have done to so-called "defend" her would be against some of the nastier posters (all of which are either gone or don't post any more) who never cut her a break. But I do that for any skater.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
That's my point. Stephane needs to work on those mistakes if he wants to keep his lead over Lysacek, Weir, Joubert, etc.
And Lysacek, Weir and Joubert are so perfect. hmmm. Yet Lambiel has two world championships under his belt with his present game.

Hang in there though, if one is wishing for the downfall of Lambiel, the knees just might do it for the wishers.

Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
RD, it's not your criticizing Sasha that's the issue - it's the obsessiveness with which you go about it. I find it disturbing but that's JMO.
There's no Kwan around to say she stagnating and the pressure will get to her.

As to your history as a Sasha-defender (per Antman): :scratch: Wasn't here, wouldn't have guessed!
He still does. He will say something 'nasty' about Sasha but if anyone else does he will come to her rescue with "Where did you hear that?", "Where is it written?" among other defending remarks. He doesn't do that for other skaters.

Joe
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The scores all seem to indicate that would be true, the top skaters without quads need the top skaters with quads to make big mistakes or do an overall real sloppy program, and then to either skate clean or make far less mistakes to have a chance to beat them in the scores.

Well, but how do you define "top skaters"? To a large extent it has to do with basic skating skills and with the quality of the elements including the jumps, not just what jumps they're doing. But it will be a continuum -- however you define a given level of skating, there will be ranges of ability within that category, and the best overall skaters in the category may be able to defeat someone with lower overall skills who happens to outjump them.

It it same in womens probably. All girls with triple-triple will probably always beat girls without one.

No, not always. Look at 2005 Worlds short program, for example. Two skaters who skated clean with triple-triple combinations, who had the highest jump scores, finished 4th and 7th in the short program. The skaters who placed ahead of them had lower jump content and in some cases more serious (but not disastrous) mistakes on one of their jumps. It was on the non-jump elements and the component scores that Kostner and Ando found themselves behind the leaders.

Let's look at a hypothetical men's short program, because there's less room for variation in the jump content than in a long program.

Skater A's jumps might be triple axel (7.5 base mark), solo triple lutz (6.0), and quad salchow-triple toe (9.5 + 4.0 = 13.5), for a total base mark of 27.0 just for the jump elements. Let's say he lands them all cleanly but the quality is only average and the grades of execution average out to 0, so he ends up with 27.0 total for the jumps.

Skater B doesn't have a quad, so he does triple flip-triple toe combination instead (5.5 + 4.0 = 9.5); the other two jumps are the same as A's, and his jump base mark is 23.00, or a total of 4.0 behind A on the jumps. But maybe he goes into his jumps with more speed, he jumps higher, he's straighter in the air, and he carries more flow on the landings, so his grades of execution average +1 on all three jump elements. That would give him another 3.00 for jumps, for a total jump score of 26.0, only 1.0 behind A.

It's very easy to make up 1.0 difference, or even 4.0, with some combination of higher levels on the spins and steps, better grades of execution on spins and steps, and higher component scores. If B is better than A at any of those areas, especially several of those areas, B will probably come out ahead when both skaters land all their jumps.

What about long programs? There are more variations in how skaters can choose which jumps to do and how to arrange them, but let's try to keep the jump layouts as similar as possible with the exception that skater A has one quad in his repertoire and skater B has none. Let's stick with the quad salchow to increase the point advantage, although more quad guys are doing quad toes.

The men are allowed eight jumping passes, which may include up to three combinations or sequences with two jumps each, or one combination can include three, for a maximum of eleven jumps. They're allowed to repeat only two triple or quad jumps one time each. To simplify the calculations, let's assume that both these guys use all the jump slots allowed and neither of them does a jump sequence, and we'll ignore the multiplier for jumps in the second half of the program.

So, maximizing the allowed jump content, A's jump passes might be (not necessarily in this order):
13.5 quad salchow-triple toe
9.5 quad salchow
10.3 triple axel-double toe-double loop
7.5 triple axel
6.0 triple lutz
5.5 triple flip
5.0 triple loop
6.0 triple salchow-double loop

Total: 43.3 jump base mark

B's could be:
10.3 triple axel-double toe-double loop
7.5 triple axel
10.0 triple lutz-triple toe
6.0 triple lutz
5.5 triple flip
5.0 triple loop
6.0 triple salchow-double loop
3.3 double axel

Total: 33.6

Difference in jump base mark is almost 10 points. If B can average one point higher in grades of execution for all eight jump passes, he can close the gap significantly just within the marks for the jumps.

Otherwise, the differences in base scores and the values of the GOEs for spins and steps are lower than for jumps, so it's harder to make up as much ground there, but if B is a better spinner and/or better skater he can get higher levels and higher GOEs and gain several points there as well.

So it would be possible to make up the difference in jump difficulty just by doing all the jumps better, AND doing harder spins and steps, AND doing them better.

OR, as pointed out earlier, the component marks are multiplied by 2 in the long program. So if B can average 1 point higher on every component (e.g., 7s to A's 6s), that will more than make up for the jump difficulty right there.

If A and B are close in overall ability, then yes, A having a quad will work in A's favor when the rest of the scores are close. But if B is a better skater overall, there are many ways to compensate for A doing harder jumps.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There's no Kwan around to say she stagnating and the pressure will get to her.

because Kwan is yesterday's news.

He still does. He will say something 'nasty' about Sasha but if anyone else does he will come to her rescue with "Where did you hear that?", "Where is it written?" among other defending remarks. He doesn't do that for other skaters.

Not true. What's the difference between just plain curiosity and actually making DEFENDING remarks? Without board-dragging I found myself "defending" Sarah over at an unnamed forum.

As always, I see tons of other posters that do the same thing. But, like always Red Dog is an easy target.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Well, but how do you define "top skaters"? ...... doing harder jumps.

I am always impressed with your posts, and I certainly hope you are going to tackle the Judging of that programe on the other thread. :bow: :bow:
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
As always, I see tons of other posters that do the same thing. But, like always Red Dog is an easy target.
Uh-oh. Now you're starting to talk about yourself in the third person. What's next: "you won't have [Red Dog] to kick around any more..."?

RD, other posters are anti-Sasha but that's fine (with me) as long as they are content with voicing their negativity, say, once a month or so. It's the non-stop, over and over, need to bash that I find weird.

I haven't noticed the pattern that Joe mentions but psychologically it seems to make sense. Anyway, I give up. I'll stop bugging you. For all I know, that just keeps you going! Sorry if I said anything untoward.
 
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