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Thread: Campbell's format announced

  1. #31
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by temperboy28 View Post
    Is the Fumie-Sasha rivalry a real one though? At the Olympics Sasha had two big falls and still won the silver, while Fumie skated almost perfect and was far from winning a medal. That seems like a joke of a rivalry.
    Yes, the whole discussion of a "grudge match" was intended as a joke. In fact, they are such close friends that at the 2002 Olympics, when Sasha arrived at the arena without her tights, Fumie lent her hers.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Smith has just one quad---the 4S. He did a quad combo in the SP and a solo quad in the FS at US Nationals, and he still didn't come anywhere near beating Lysacek, Savoie and Weir. The reason? Smith lands the jumps, but not always cleanly; his non-jump elements are nothing special; and his expressionless skating gets badly dinged in the PCS scores. Smith finished 10 points behind the top 3 on the PCS in the FS, and he got mostly 0s on the GOE for non-jump elements.

    Smith doesn't have Lambiel's spins or Joubert's joie de vivre, so you can't say Smith will win if he 'just land his jumps'. Lambiel and Joubert, if nothing else, have personality on the ice, while Smith is a skating nebbish. Smith could be most accurately compared to Chengjiang Li, who lands his jumps but has never had a podium placement.

    At 24, Smith has already developed whatever personality he is going to have. We won't see any major improvement on that score.
    While alot of what you say makes sense here is how I see it. The skaters with quads like Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert, and even Sandhu will always beat the skaters without quads like Oda, Lysacek, Takahashi, and Weir if they all skate clean. The scores all seem to indicate that would be true, the top skaters without quads need the top skaters with quads to make big mistakes or do an overall real sloppy program, and then to either skate clean or make far less mistakes to have a chance to beat them in the scores.

    At the Olympics for example Lambiel had 3 huge mistakes, and looked slow and tenative all the way and still received almost the exact same score as Lysacek with his perfect performance. Lambiel had a clean quad in his program though. There are alot of other examples too.

    That is why I was saying Scott Smith could beat the 4 skaters you mentioned with a quad, since they often dont even try one. The example of the skaters I listed above.

    It it same in womens probably. All girls with triple-triple will probably always beat girls without one.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes, the whole discussion of a "grudge match" was intended as a joke. In fact, they are such close friends that at the 2002 Olympics, when Sasha arrived at the arena without her tights, Fumie lent her hers.

    Kewl that sounds sweet. They both sound like nice people.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by temperboy28 View Post
    That is why I was saying Scott Smith could beat the 4 skaters you mentioned with a quad, since they often dont even try one. The example of the skaters I listed above.

    It it same in womens probably. All girls with triple-triple will probably always beat girls without one.
    Only if the quads and/or 3/3s are completely rotated. Lots of girls "have" 3/3s but the tech specialist doesn't always agree.

    Meanwhile, Lysacek and Weir have both added quads to their repertoire. Both have already attempted them in competition. As time goes by, the quads will become more and more secure and Smith will have less and less chance to beat them.

    Incidentally, Smith already competed against Oda and Matt Savoie at 2006 4CC.

    4CC SP
    In the SP, Smith landed a 4S3T, 3A, 3L, but none of the jumps were squeaky clean, and he bungled his combination spin. Smith got a PCS score of 27.25 and wound up 6th in the SP, beaten by:

    5th Kensuke Nakaniwa: landed 4T3T but fell on an axle attempt rated as a 1A. PCS 31.72
    4th Marc Andre Craig: no quad. 3A, 3F3T, 3Z PCS 29.46
    3rd Christopher Mabee: no quad. 3A, 3Z3T, 3F. Lots of +1s and a few +2 for non-jump elements. PCS: 31.27
    2nd Matt Savoie: no quad. 3A, 3F3T, 3Z. Lots of +1s and a few +2 on both jump and non-jump elements. PCS: 36.04
    1st Nobunari Oda. no quad. 3A, 3Z3T, 3F. Lots of +1s and a few +2 on both jump and non-jump elements. PCS: 35.39

    As it turned out, the two men who landed quads (Smith and Nakaniwa) finished LOWER than 4 men with no quads. Craig, Mabee, Savoie and Oda had overall better quality jumps and Savoie and Oda had far superior non-jump elements.

    4CC FS:
    In the FS, the only man to land a quad was Xiadong Ma, who landed a 4T3T2T combination. He finished 9th in the FS, though, because he doubled quite a few jumps after that and had a fall.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Only if the quads and/or 3/3s are completely rotated. Lots of girls "have" 3/3s but the tech specialist doesn't always agree.

    Meanwhile, Lysacek and Weir have both added quads to their repertoire. Both have already attempted them in competition. As time goes by, the quads will become more and more secure and Smith will have less and less chance to beat them.

    Incidentally, Smith already competed against Oda and Matt Savoie at 2006 4CC.

    4CC SP
    In the SP, Smith landed a 4S3T, 3A, 3L, but none of the jumps were squeaky clean, and he bungled his combination spin. Smith got a PCS score of 27.25 and wound up 6th in the SP, beaten by:

    5th Kensuke Nakaniwa: landed 4T3T but fell on an axle attempt rated as a 1A. PCS 31.72
    4th Marc Andre Craig: no quad. 3A, 3F3T, 3Z PCS 29.46
    3rd Christopher Mabee: no quad. 3A, 3Z3T, 3F. Lots of +1s and a few +2 for non-jump elements. PCS: 31.27
    2nd Matt Savoie: no quad. 3A, 3F3T, 3Z. Lots of +1s and a few +2 on both jump and non-jump elements. PCS: 36.04
    1st Nobunari Oda. no quad. 3A, 3Z3T, 3F. Lots of +1s and a few +2 on both jump and non-jump elements. PCS: 35.39

    As it turned out, the two men who landed quads (Smith and Nakaniwa) finished LOWER than 4 men with no quads. Craig, Mabee, Savoie and Oda had overall better quality jumps and Savoie and Oda had far superior non-jump elements.

    4CC FS:
    In the FS, the only man to land a quad was Xiadong Ma, who landed a 4T3T2T combination. He finished 9th in the FS, though, because he doubled quite a few jumps after that and had a fall.
    You just said though that Smith and Nakaniwa did not do all their jumps without mistakes, so they did not skate "cleanly". What I said was skaters with quads like Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert, and even Sandhu will always beat out skaters without quads like Butle, Weir, Oda, Lysacek, and others if they all skate "cleanly" with no mistakes, so I would see the same for Smith too. You are saying the two guys who were 5th and 6th at the event, Scott Smith being one of them, had mistakes right? They may make mistakes alot and even be likely too, I was just saying if Scott skated cleanly I think he could beat the skaters you mentioned with no quads since the skaters I mentioned with quads will always beat the skaters with no quads skating cleanly so it seems to be the way it is.

    You also cant really say skaters like Weir or Lysacek have mastered a quad yet. They need to do more then land one very shaky quad at Worlds each to have mastered it, it is too early to say they mastered it or you know they ever will, they might, they might no as wellt. It is the same with others who have not mastered quads yet, you dont know if any of them will until they reach that point they have. Almost everytime I have seen Smith skate in a U.S event, or small international, on TV he has either landed a quad or made a good attempt.

    You are right the jumps must be rotated. I mean if he rotates the jumps enough to get credit as well, just like girls have to rotate the 3/3s to make them mean something like you said.

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    The bottom line is that Scott Smith landed quads in both SP and FS at 2006 Nationals, and he skated fairly cleanly in both. Lysacek had a very messy SP, Weir left out two jumping passes in his FS, and Savoie fell on a 3A and doubled his 3Z in the FS. Even though Smith landed his quad in both programs, he still did not beat those quadless men, even when they were not clean.

    It takes MORE than jumps to win a competition. Smith just doesn't have more than jumps. His non-jump elements are very mediocre and he skates without expression or character. The international judges agree with that, as his PCS scores in his 4CC SP and FS attest. It is extremely difficult for a skater with a 10 point PCS deficit to win a competition.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes, the whole discussion of a "grudge match" was intended as a joke. In fact, they are such close friends that at the 2002 Olympics, when Sasha arrived at the arena without her tights, Fumie lent her hers.
    ...and then, according to Fumie, she never returned them.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    The bottom line is that Scott Smith landed quads in both SP and FS at 2006 Nationals, and he skated fairly cleanly in both. Lysacek had a very messy SP, Weir left out two jumping passes in his FS, and Savoie fell on a 3A and doubled his 3Z in the FS. Even though Smith landed his quad in both programs, he still did not beat those quadless men, even when they were not clean.

    It takes MORE than jumps to win a competition. Smith just doesn't have more than jumps. His non-jump elements are very mediocre and he skates without expression or character. The international judges agree with that, as his PCS scores in his 4CC SP and FS attest. It is extremely difficult for a skater with a 10 point PCS deficit to win a competition.
    Well I saw his freeskate at U.S Nationals and it looked pretty good, with almost no mistakes, but I did not remember the exact score, but assumed he had mistakes in the short to be below those guys without quads who did not even skate clean. You say he had an almost clean short too though. Well that is different then the Four Continents event since you described him making mistakes there. Maybe even without mistakes he is too weak to beat the contenders without quads after all then.

  9. #39
    Joey Votto Fangirl KwanFan1212's Avatar
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    All I have to say about this event...........I'm SO going and I plan to enjoy every minute. A skating event in Cincinnati!? That NEVER happens and I will be there with bells on!! YAY CINCY!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I agree with this. I don't take her word for it when she "claims" she'll be there. Also- heard nothing about any new programs, so if anything at all it's definitely going to be one of her old programs.
    She still has two months. Plenty of time.Plus maybe they will do an exhibition style or Interpretive program.
    The question is When does she have time to create programs with all the movie appearences? The Fumie rivalry was propelled when Sasha's webmaster put on her website that Fumie medaled in 03 due to an easier qualifying group versus Sasha who got stuck in the group with the years gold and silver medalist.
    Last edited by Eeyora; 08-22-2006 at 12:25 AM.

  11. #41
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    oh, that thing on her website is old news. Every time someone brings it up it reminds me of a certain poster who used to post here

    Two months is nothing when you are soaking in the limelight, going to movie premieres and doing tons of acting gigs. That's her new life, not skating. Skating doesn't bring her enough attention.

    I bet she's only appearing because they are dragging her there...or the money

  12. #42
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Good grief, RD, do you get paid to bash Sasha? Don't you ever get tired of being negative (always about the same person)?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    oh, that thing on her website is old news. Every time someone brings it up it reminds me of a certain poster who used to post here

    Two months is nothing when you are soaking in the limelight, going to movie premieres and doing tons of acting gigs. That's her new life, not skating. Skating doesn't bring her enough attention.

    I bet she's only appearing because they are dragging her there...or the money
    It may be that as the 2006 US Champion, Sasha is contractually obligated to do Campbell's and the winter Marshall's (unless she is ill or injured, of course). Since she has not ruled out competing in the future, she probably wants to maintain a cordial relationship with the USFS.

  14. #44
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    OMG!!!! Now I am officially excited for this new season!!! I can't wait to see Nam/Lefteris, and I am so thrilled for Gregory/Petukhov! I like this format, it looks like for once they thought about how to form a competition, not just USA vs World, but breaking it up into Japan and Canada, and inviting some exciting skaters and fan favorites other than the same medalists over and over again. Any word on whether Japan or Canada TV will broadcast this? Hopefully over the three broadcasts we'll see all the performances, because of course the US broadcast will chack something.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by temperboy28 View Post
    Lambiel always beats Weir and Lysacek by doing quads so Scott Smith can do the same thing if he lands his quads. Oda also does not have a quad. Takahashi occasionaly tries one but not always. So he can beat all 4 of them if he does his quads, the same way Lambiel does by landing his quads, and Joubert does when he does not fall on half of his jumps.
    I don't think you can even compare Lambiel and Smith - Lambiel is ten times the basic skater that Scot Smith is, and is much more musical etc etc.

    Ant

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