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Thread: You want to Judge? - "sorta"

  1. #1
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    You want to Judge? - "sorta"

    Here is Fumie's SP from the 06 Olys with no commentator or crowd. file size does not exceed 10mb for your ease. Plus that is why I used a familiar pro - well.. that and.....

    YouSendIt video

    FileFactory video
    choose your option of download then begin download following page

    Mark your TES with the element (base value of the element and the +3 / -3) = your score given.
    Say the Double axle was clean got the 3.3 and you gave +1 • you post -
    2a = 4.3
    etc...

    is that correct?

    Reference for element value - Thanks again Mathman
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf
    page 29 starts table

    In my mind the "artistic" score would be added in the Kiss and Cry - announced there for placement and to keep some of the "suspense" alive.

    The boarders on the left side are for the TES to come up on.

    The name(s) of the element(s) on the bottom - as identified by the TS (or you in this case because I want to do it all at once and if there are discrepancies I will say 8 of 12 called it a 2a so it is, instead of a 3a which 4 called it. That will be the name on the bottom of the screen.)

    The running total of points adding as the individual scores came up for each element on the left "board" will be added on the far right bottom "board".

    • I think you know what is going on here. First 12 to submit I will start working this up with their scores.

    • If you want the file / video but are exsperencing issues and can't reteve the ones posted, let me know (PM or post) and I can try other options for you.

    BTW, that is how well the music was edited in her Oly SP.

    If you want to remain anonymous feel free to send the results to me directly, PM or EM.

    Kampai
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 08-21-2006 at 08:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    This will be a bigger test of our knowledge of the judging system than it might seem.

    For instance, not only do we have to know that a double Axel is worth 3.3 points (9?), but also we have to know that if you give a "plus 1 GOE" that gives a total of 4.3 as expected, but if you give a "minus 1 GOE" that translates into a -0.7 for a total of 2.6.

    For real judges the computer does that for them.

    Also, I think you are asking us to be the tech specialist as well, right? We have to decide whether the jump was a 2A or a 3A. (In the case of Fumie, I can answer that without seeing the video, LOL.)

    (I will PM you about video problems.)

  3. #3
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    (9?) for a 2a?

    Also, I think you are asking us to be the tech specialist as well, right? We have to decide whether the jump was a 2A or a 3A. (In the case of Fumie, I can answer that without seeing the video, LOL.)

    (I will PM you about video problems.)
    I guess I was thinking 4t

    and

    Yes.

    Let me try to find that element point values you sent me.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    Let me try to find that element point values you sent me.
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    Page 29 ff.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That was a pointless search for Sean But I did rename it for easier location

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here are the revised regulations about spin levels.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    And the GOE criteria.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

  7. #7
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Thanks MM, 1342 was acutely the one I was looking for to start with. I must have 10 files starting with the name 0,11040,4844-........ You are so appreciated!!!!

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    Custom Title Jhar55's Avatar
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    Thinks sometimes the arm chair judges get it more right the the "real" judges

  9. #9
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhar55 View Post
    Thinks sometimes the arm chair judges get it more right the the "real" judges
    That is what I would love to find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu
    Mark your TES with the element (base value of the element and the +3 / -3) = your score given.
    Say the Double axle was clean got the 3.3 and you gave +1 • you post -
    2a = 4.3
    etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This will be a bigger test of our knowledge of the judging system than it might seem.

    For instance, not only do we have to know that a double Axel is worth 3.3 points (9?), but also we have to know that if you give a "plus 1 GOE" that gives a total of 4.3 as expected, but if you give a "minus 1 GOE" that translates into a -0.7 for a total of 2.6.

    For real judges the computer does that for them.

    Also, I think you are asking us to be the tech specialist as well, right?
    Judge, tech specialist, and accountant all at once. That's asking a lot.

    Also, if you're going to have a panel of judges, the way the math is done in the real system is that the GOEs are averaged and then added to the base mark -- each judge doesn't add his or her GOE to the base mark and then the totals are averaged. The results should be the same, but the judges don't have to do any math.

    How about if the "judges" just give grades of execution and component marks, like the real judges, and you can use the real tech specialist's calls for what the elements are, and then you can do all the calculations at the end. It's easy enough to tell which jump is which, but determining the level of a step sequence is a lot trickier!

  11. #11
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    It's easy enough to tell which jump is which...
    Even that is not so easy for us amateurs, especially when we are dependent on whatever view the TV camera happens to show. When "scoring at home" I always need a jump card -- either a call from the commentators or an expectation from previous performances -- to spot the difference, say, between a Salchow and a loop, in real time.

    Likewise, assigning GOE points. The best I can manage is, well, that was pretty, I'll give that a +1. Learning the actual criteria is hard work even for the dilligent and expert judge.

    Last but not least, I find it utterly impossible to eliminate prejudging and bias from my judging efforts. Michelle didn't really bobble the landing of that triple Lutz -- that was an optical illusion, right? And oh! her interpretation and choreography -- not to mention her latest Vera Wang -- that's a 9.5 in PCSs right there!

  12. #12
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Sounds like I need to change the approach.

    Guess it should be more fun and less tedious.

    Thanks for the input, it is much better to understand then just get ignored and never know. I thought there were a few of you that would get a kick out of doing this - it seems to happen from time to time.

    Oh well.

    Maybe I will revamp it per Gkelley's suggestions, now I have to find the breakdown of components during that routine again.

  13. #13
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    No thanks!!! It took me years as a figure skater to understand the old 6.0 judging system. I am not even going to attempt the new one. I still look at skating through the old scoring system. Give me a 5.9 or a 6.0 anyday. That I can understand!!!! The new one is too complicated for this old brain.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    When "scoring at home" I always need a jump card -- either a call from the commentators or an expectation from previous performances -- to spot the difference, say, between a Salchow and a loop, in real time.
    I can do that because the leg swings through on the Salchow versus crossed legs at the beginning of the loop. But I find that I sometimes judge by where the jump occurs in the program to distinguish between flip and toe loop. (If it's at the end, it's a toe loop, if it's right after the lutz, it's a flip.) How do you tell the difference between those, especially trying to keep straight which foot the clockwise jumper will use to pick, versus the counterclockwise jumper?

  15. #15
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    Sounds like I need to change the approach.

    Guess it should be more fun and less tedious.

    Thanks for the input, it is much better to understand then just get ignored and never know. I thought there were a few of you that would get a kick out of doing this - it seems to happen from time to time.

    Oh well.

    Maybe I will revamp it per Gkelley's suggestions, now I have to find the breakdown of components during that routine again.
    Here ya go.

    3Lz+2T
    3F
    SpSt3
    2A
    FSSp3
    SlSt3
    CCoSp4

    http://www.isufs.org/results/owg2006..._SP_Scores.pdf

    Sean, don't let us nervous Nellies discourage you. This is a great idea. We are just afraid of looking foolish by calling a CiSt4 instead of a SlSt3.

    To follow up on GKelly's suggestion, here's what would be cool. Can you make it so that the tech specialist's call ("3 Flip") appears on the screen in real time, then the "judge" clicks on +3 to -3 for GOE. Then you have already programmed it to make the necessary conversions and add up the totals. Then at the end (like you say, in the Kiss and Cry) the judge enters the program component scores.

    Then the summary of the actual judges scores appears on the screen, with the student judges' scores underneath.

    That would blow my mind. Then you could have a whole tournament. Like put up Sasha's, Irina's and Shizuka's SPs, too. At the end you could see how well your judging matched the real judges.

    (In the real ISU judging evaluation procedure, a judge is guilty of an "anomaly" if he/she are too far off. For each of the seven elements, take the absolute value of the difference between your score and the average of the panel, add them up, and if it comes to more than seven then the ISU judges' oversight committee is supposed to review your marks for evidence of incompetence and bias).
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-23-2006 at 02:09 PM.

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