You want to Judge? - "sorta" | Golden Skate

You want to Judge? - "sorta"

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Here is Fumie's SP from the 06 Olys with no commentator or crowd. file size does not exceed 10mb for your ease. Plus that is why I used a familiar pro - well.. that and.....

YouSendIt video

FileFactory video
choose your option of download then begin download following page

Mark your TES with the element (base value of the element and the +3 / -3) = your score given.
Say the Double axle was clean got the 3.3 and you gave +1 • you post -
2a = 4.3
etc...

is that correct?

Reference for element value - Thanks again Mathman
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-160824-178039-80283-0-file,00.pdf
page 29 starts table

In my mind the "artistic" score would be added in the Kiss and Cry - announced there for placement and to keep some of the "suspense" alive.

The boarders on the left side are for the TES to come up on.

The name(s) of the element(s) on the bottom - as identified by the TS (or you in this case because I want to do it all at once and if there are discrepancies I will say 8 of 12 called it a 2a so it is, instead of a 3a which 4 called it. That will be the name on the bottom of the screen.)

The running total of points adding as the individual scores came up for each element on the left "board" will be added on the far right bottom "board".

• I think you know what is going on here. First 12 to submit I will start working this up with their scores.

• If you want the file / video but are exsperencing issues and can't reteve the ones posted, let me know (PM or post) and I can try other options for you.

BTW, that is how well the music was edited in her Oly SP.

If you want to remain anonymous feel free to send the results to me directly, PM or EM.

Kampai
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This will be a bigger test of our knowledge of the judging system than it might seem.

For instance, not only do we have to know that a double Axel is worth 3.3 points (9?), but also we have to know that if you give a "plus 1 GOE" that gives a total of 4.3 as expected, but if you give a "minus 1 GOE" that translates into a -0.7 for a total of 2.6.

For real judges the computer does that for them.

Also, I think you are asking us to be the tech specialist as well, right? We have to decide whether the jump was a 2A or a 3A. (In the case of Fumie, I can answer that without seeing the video, LOL.)

(I will PM you about video problems.)
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
(9?) for a 2a?

Also, I think you are asking us to be the tech specialist as well, right? We have to decide whether the jump was a 2A or a 3A. (In the case of Fumie, I can answer that without seeing the video, LOL.)

(I will PM you about video problems.)

I guess I was thinking 4t:laugh:

and

Yes.

Let me try to find that element point values you sent me.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Thanks MM, 1342 was acutely the one I was looking for to start with. I must have 10 files starting with the name 0,11040,4844-........ You are so appreciated!!!!:bow:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
SeaniBu said:
Mark your TES with the element (base value of the element and the +3 / -3) = your score given.
Say the Double axle was clean got the 3.3 and you gave +1 • you post -
2a = 4.3
etc...


This will be a bigger test of our knowledge of the judging system than it might seem.

For instance, not only do we have to know that a double Axel is worth 3.3 points (9?), but also we have to know that if you give a "plus 1 GOE" that gives a total of 4.3 as expected, but if you give a "minus 1 GOE" that translates into a -0.7 for a total of 2.6.

For real judges the computer does that for them.

Also, I think you are asking us to be the tech specialist as well, right?

Judge, tech specialist, and accountant all at once. That's asking a lot.

Also, if you're going to have a panel of judges, the way the math is done in the real system is that the GOEs are averaged and then added to the base mark -- each judge doesn't add his or her GOE to the base mark and then the totals are averaged. The results should be the same, but the judges don't have to do any math.

How about if the "judges" just give grades of execution and component marks, like the real judges, and you can use the real tech specialist's calls for what the elements are, and then you can do all the calculations at the end. It's easy enough to tell which jump is which, but determining the level of a step sequence is a lot trickier!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's easy enough to tell which jump is which...
Even that is not so easy for us amateurs, especially when we are dependent on whatever view the TV camera happens to show. When "scoring at home" I always need a jump card -- either a call from the commentators or an expectation from previous performances -- to spot the difference, say, between a Salchow and a loop, in real time.

Likewise, assigning GOE points. The best I can manage is, well, that was pretty, I'll give that a +1. Learning the actual criteria is hard work even for the dilligent and expert judge.

Last but not least, I find it utterly impossible to eliminate prejudging and bias from my judging efforts. Michelle didn't really bobble the landing of that triple Lutz -- that was an optical illusion, right? And oh! her interpretation and choreography -- not to mention her latest Vera Wang -- that's a 9.5 in PCSs right there! :)
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Sounds like I need to change the approach.:laugh: :agree:

Guess it should be more fun and less tedious.:agree:

Thanks for the input, it is much better to understand then just get ignored and never know. I thought there were a few of you that would get a kick out of doing this - it seems to happen from time to time.;)

Oh well.

Maybe I will revamp it per Gkelley's suggestions, now I have to find the breakdown of components during that routine again. :scratch:
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
No thanks!!! It took me years as a figure skater to understand the old 6.0 judging system. I am not even going to attempt the new one. I still look at skating through the old scoring system. Give me a 5.9 or a 6.0 anyday. That I can understand!!!! The new one is too complicated for this old brain.
 

Alsace

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
When "scoring at home" I always need a jump card -- either a call from the commentators or an expectation from previous performances -- to spot the difference, say, between a Salchow and a loop, in real time.

I can do that because the leg swings through on the Salchow versus crossed legs at the beginning of the loop. But I find that I sometimes judge by where the jump occurs in the program to distinguish between flip and toe loop. (If it's at the end, it's a toe loop, if it's right after the lutz, it's a flip.) How do you tell the difference between those, especially trying to keep straight which foot the clockwise jumper will use to pick, versus the counterclockwise jumper?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sounds like I need to change the approach.:laugh: :agree:

Guess it should be more fun and less tedious.:agree:

Thanks for the input, it is much better to understand then just get ignored and never know. I thought there were a few of you that would get a kick out of doing this - it seems to happen from time to time.;)

Oh well.

Maybe I will revamp it per Gkelley's suggestions, now I have to find the breakdown of components during that routine again. :scratch:
Here ya go. :)

3Lz+2T
3F
SpSt3
2A
FSSp3
SlSt3
CCoSp4

http://www.isufs.org/results/owg2006/OWG06_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

Sean, don't let us nervous Nellies discourage you. This is a great idea. We are just afraid of looking foolish by calling a CiSt4 instead of a SlSt3.

To follow up on GKelly's suggestion, here's what would be cool. Can you make it so that the tech specialist's call ("3 Flip") appears on the screen in real time, then the "judge" clicks on +3 to -3 for GOE. Then you have already programmed it to make the necessary conversions and add up the totals. Then at the end (like you say, in the Kiss and Cry) the judge enters the program component scores.

Then the summary of the actual judges scores appears on the screen, with the student judges' scores underneath.

That would blow my mind. Then you could have a whole tournament. Like put up Sasha's, Irina's and Shizuka's SPs, too. At the end you could see how well your judging matched the real judges.

(In the real ISU judging evaluation procedure, a judge is guilty of an "anomaly" if he/she are too far off. For each of the seven elements, take the absolute value of the difference between your score and the average of the panel, add them up, and if it comes to more than seven then the ISU judges' oversight committee is supposed to review your marks for evidence of incompetence and bias).
 
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SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Here ya go. :)

3Lz+2T
3F
SpSt3
2A
FSSp3
SlSt3
CCoSp4
so you did it anyway:laugh: :laugh:
Sean, don't let us nervous Nellies discourage you. This is a great idea. We are just afraid of looking foolish by calling a CiSt4 instead of a SlSt3.
Believe me I had the same fear:laugh: Even if I copied the "real McCoy" I would have been afraid of the " SeaniBu, I can't agree with you calling that a..." Why do you think I wanted everyone else to do it.:agree: :p
To follow up on GKelly's suggestion, .... ISU judges' oversight committee is supposed to review your marks for evidence of incompetence and bias).
:agree: :clap: That is the plan, but now I need to go and put the "calls" in so this can start. I also wanted to only have to put in "text / numbers" at once. But I need not be so lazy, let's see how quick I can get this, the terms and the rest of my life going. Hopefully before Oct:laugh:

I still want to fix everyones "video viewing issues" - please everyone tell me what happened if you could not get the vid to play or download or whatever message you received.
email or PM I don't care, I just want you all to get what you want, GSers deserve it!:rock:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
After you do "So you want to judge" it might be even more fun to try "So you want to be a Technical Specialist."

I looked again at this particular performance of Fumie, as an example, and there didn't really seem to be much for the judges to do. Every element is OK to pretty good. If you just gave 0 GOE across the board, that would be quite appropriate (and would match the opinions of the actual judges just fine).

Similarly, if you just gave a blanket 7.25 for PCSs, that would be right in line with what everyone else thought.

For advanced students, the Tech Specialist game could go like this. The video starts and runs up to right after she completes her first element (a jump combination in this case). Then it pauses and you have to enter what you thought it was (the correct answer is 3Lz+2T, but you don't know that until the end). Then it starts up again until the next element.

For instance, the third element is a "Spiral Step Sequence, level 3." Most players would recognize the element as a spiral, but they would have to make a judgment about the level (did she attain a Biellmann position? Did she change the edge?)

The spins would be the hardest. You would have to know, for instance, how many changes of position and changes of edges, how many revolutions on each edge, etc. (Fumie's last element, in the judgment of the actual Tech specialist, was a CCoSp4 -- what does she have to do to get that call?)

MM :)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Actually, I think the spins are pretty easy to assign levels to, about the same as spirals. It's the step sequences that drive me crazy.

If you want to use the Torino calls to check your work, make sure to use 2005-06 rules. Several of the level descriptions have changed for 06-07, most notably the number of features required to achieve a given level.

I have not been able to get SeaniBu's video to play on my computer, so I just watched my videotape on my VCR and paused with the remote control.

Should we have two separate threads, one to discuss the skating and a separate one to discuss whatever format innovations SeaniBu is trying to show us that I can't see? I can discuss the level features that I would or wouldn't give credit for in that performance, and other posters can argue with me if you disagree.
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
So how exactly are we doing this. We basically just list you off our GOES for her elements and our PCS scores for her?
 
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