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Thread: What became of the triple-triple?

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    What became of the triple-triple?

    Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?

    In the Olympic free skate, unless I missed something glancing at the protocols, only one lady tried a triple-triple. That was Elene Gedevanishvili. She got a negative GOE on the element, plus got 0 credit for her last jump for a Zayak violation (she did 2A+3T, 3Lz+3T and solo 3T), and finished 13th.

    Meanwhile...Arakawa, no 3/3; Cohen, no 3/3; Slutskaya, no 3/3; Suguri, no 3/3; Rochette, no 3/3; Meissner, no 3/3; Hughes, no 3/3;...

    Are we going backwards technically?

    At Worlds, as far as I can see only one skater did a triple-triple. Meissner did two, and the judges went so crazy for her that they gave her PCSs seven points higher than her previous personal best.

    What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?

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    I think a triple-triple is of huge benefit to the women to do, not only in the TES value points they gain, but like you said the inevitable boost it seems to give your PCS scores. I cant imagine Meissner having gotten anywhere near as high of PCS as she received without doing the triple-triples. Slutskaya gets a big boost in her PCS to when she does a triple-triple, like happened at Worlds in Moscow last year.

    Arakawa was practicing 3/3s at the Olympics but not do one in her program. I was surprised and dissapointed she did not. She had already known Cohen had made two major errors probably so that might be why, but Irina was still to come and she still did not unleash all her artillery. Maybe she already know Irina was not physicaly up to lasting the long program though by that point, I dont know.

    Cohen used to do a triple lutz-triple toe, or atleast attempt it often, but not anymore.

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    Actually, the ladies haven't been doing the 3/3's consistently at all for a long time now ... with a few exceptions. That's why I could never grasp the constant nagging Michelle got for not doing them. And at this past Olympics it was even more ironic ... that the one Olympics Michelle couldn't compete in because of an injury, was the one where nobody (including the OGM) even tried one.

    MM, I'm sure some of the youngsters will try them ... and some will get injured, I'm sure. I don't know if the sport is going backwards in this regard ... maybe it's a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice to see folks leave their eligible careers in one piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21 View Post
    Arakawa was practicing 3/3s at the Olympics but not do one in her program. I was surprised and dissapointed she did not. She had already known Cohen had made two major errors probably so that might be why, but Irina was still to come and she still did not unleash all her artillery.
    Japan had not medalled in Torino, and there was pressure on Arakawa to get a medal, any medal, with the possibility of two medals for Japan if Suguri did well. By attempting 3/3's, she could have risked landing off the podium, especially with Suguri and Meissner to follow as well as Slutskaya.

    Slutskaya's best chances for a 3/3 were scuttled when she did not land five of her seven jumps cleanly. But she's never had a good record for winning when she wasn't significantly ahead after the SP or ahead by enough that the base content of her closest competitor to follow couldn't match hers (Moscow Worlds, Lyon Euros).
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 08-22-2006 at 10:30 AM.

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    I recall a Slutskaya interview just before Torino where she said she wasn't going to do a 3/3 in her FS. She hoped the judges would continue to prop up her PCS scores so that sh wouldn't need to do the 3/3. Arakawa may have either read the interview or heard about it from Tarasova.

    Sasha was the leader after the SP and had been Irina's main competition (aside from Asada) since Irina's return to competition. Once Sasha blew her FS, Shizuka correctly gambled that Irina wouldn't feel any need to add a 3/3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?.

    What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?
    Mathman...you may have answered your own question....A Blades on Ice Article you linked to back in the July (News section online),
    has a partial answer as well as the August News online written by Alexandra Stevenson, who wrote up Broadmoor results and Liberty results...has Ashley Wagner, who competed Jr Ladies at Liberty doing 3T 3T sequence, with a quote somewhere about getting at least one 3/3 combo in her long this season, if not two.
    https://bladesonice.com/blaweb1.htm

    She competes this week at the JGP in France, so lets see what the younger set of skaters is bringing to the table.

    Alexandra also mentioned in the July article something about a jump event at the Broadmoor Open where Rachael Flatt did 3Lz/3T on her first try,
    https://bladesonice.com/oldnews1.htm

    so it seems as if the younger kids are looking to up the ante. And, hopefully without injury.
    Last edited by Nigel; 08-22-2006 at 11:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I recall a Slutskaya interview just before Torino where she said she wasn't going to do a 3/3 in her FS. She hoped the judges would continue to prop up her PCS scores so that sh wouldn't need to do the 3/3. Arakawa may have either read the interview or heard about it from Tarasova.

    Sasha was the leader after the SP and had been Irina's main competition (aside from Asada) since Irina's return to competition. Once Sasha blew her FS, Shizuka correctly gambled that Irina wouldn't feel any need to add a 3/3.
    Yeah but if Irina had skated great performance even without the 3/3 she probably would have won. Shizuka still took a risk probably by not doing a triple-triple combination.

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    I think it was a risk either way. On the one hand, as I recall Shizuka had totally psyched out the other ladies at practice because she was the only one landing her 3/3s. This, too, may have played a role in the tentativeness that we saw in Sasha and Irina.

    But on the other, Shizuka had a long history of having her 3/3s (rather, her 3 / 2-and-a-halfs) downgraded by the international judges, so maybe she was a little hesitant, too.

    I read afterward that the decision to leave out the first 3/3 was made by her coach beforehand. She still intended to try the second, but she did not have enough speed going into the first jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think it was a risk either way. On the one hand, as I recall Shizuka had totally psyched out the other ladies at practice because she was the only one landing her 3/3s. This, too, may have played a role in the tentativeness that we saw in Sasha and Irina.

    But on the other, Shizuka had a long history of having her 3/3s (rather, her 3 / 2-and-a-halfs) downgraded by the international judges, so maybe she was a little hesitant, too.

    I read afterward that the decision to leave out the first 3/3 was made by her coach beforehand. She still intended to try the second, but she did not have enough speed going into the first jump.
    So she did intend to do the second 3/3, that is interesting. So with the second 3/3 not coming off, as she was planning for it too, and a doubled triple loop she actually did far less of a performance then what she even went out planning to do and still won quite easily in the end.

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    By the way Mathman do you think Arakawa's 2004 Worlds winning performance would have had the two 3/3s ratified had COP been used? I believe that day they were fully rotated, I would probably check on film sometime though. She would have had 2 jumps in the short program that year though downgraded to doubles if I recall correctly which would have killed her, not only her triple-triple combo, but her triple flip. Her triple flip was downgraded in the short program twice this year as well.

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    As a weak-eyed armchair quarterback, I find it utterly impossible to tell whether a jump is fully rotated or not. The skater is already starting the rotation at the take-off, plus she is turning on the landing. I don't see how it is possible -- I know I can't do it -- to decide exactly what the angle of the blade was at the split second of take-off and landing.

    I guess that is why they give the skaters a fudge factor of a full 90 degrees before they say, nope, that rotation was not just short, it was TOO short.

    I don't envy the tech specialists and judges in their jobs.
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-22-2006 at 01:10 PM.

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    BTW, the CoP gives the ladies an out, if they can't do a triple-triple. Just tack a double loop on the end of everything.

    The judging system allows one three-jump combo and two more two-jump combos. So, for instance, in Mao Asada's winning Grand Prix Finals FP her last three jumping passes went

    3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
    3F+2Lo
    3Lz+2Lo

    That's an extra 4 2-loops for free! for a total of 6.6 extra points (24.8 points altogether), including the end-of-the-program bonus.

    At 2005 World's Stutskaya started out with

    3Lz+3Lo
    3S+2Lo+2T
    3Lo
    3Lo+2Lo.

    If she had changed her first 3Lo and her 2T both to 2-loops she would have got an extra 1.7 points!

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    It seems the ladies have been told since what Calgary 1988 that must have a 3/3 to be competetive? Can anyone who is up on statistics list how many successful 3/3s have been landed by the ladies in each Olympics and Worlds since then? Are the numbers going up, down, no change? Can it be that a 3/3 is not a realistic expectation if we want skaters to maintain their health?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?

    In the Olympic free skate, unless I missed something glancing at the protocols, only one lady tried a triple-triple. That was Elene Gedevanishvili. She got a negative GOE on the element, plus got 0 credit for her last jump for a Zayak violation (she did 2A+3T, 3Lz+3T and solo 3T), and finished 13th.

    Meanwhile...Arakawa, no 3/3; Cohen, no 3/3; Slutskaya, no 3/3; Suguri, no 3/3; Rochette, no 3/3; Meissner, no 3/3; Hughes, no 3/3;...

    Are we going backwards technically?

    At Worlds, as far as I can see only one skater did a triple-triple. Meissner did two, and the judges went so crazy for her that they gave her PCSs seven points higher than her previous personal best.

    What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?

    Caro Kostner does 3-3-3 combo
    http://ejibk.funpic.de/Carolina%20Ko...33%20combo.wmv

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    She hoped the judges would continue to prop up her PCS scores so that sh wouldn't need to do the 3/3.
    She SAID this?

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