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Thread: What became of the triple-triple?

  1. #31
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21 View Post
    By the way Mathman do you think Arakawa's 2004 Worlds winning performance would have had the two 3/3s ratified had COP been used? I believe that day they were fully rotated, I would probably check on film sometime though. She would have had 2 jumps in the short program that year though downgraded to doubles if I recall correctly which would have killed her, not only her triple-triple combo, but her triple flip. Her triple flip was downgraded in the short program twice this year as well.
    I'm going purely off (slightl unreliable!) memory here, but the the triple on the back of the lutz in the SP (was it a toe or a loop, i cn't remember) was definitely a half turn short) and i think the second half of the Lutz combo in the LP was also short on rotation. The 3/3 off the salchow i think looked clean though.

    Ant

  2. #32
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I'm going purely off (slightl unreliable!) memory here, but the the triple on the back of the lutz in the SP (was it a toe or a loop, i cn't remember) was definitely a half turn short) and i think the second half of the Lutz combo in the LP was also short on rotation. The 3/3 off the salchow i think looked clean though.Ant
    My own personal thoughts on that was it all happened during the 6.0 system., and what did it matter whether it was cheated or not? The LP was part of the comparison look at skaters and Shiz's 3x3s looked impressive. I'm sure some judges saw cheats (if there were any) others didn't or didn't want to.

    Now, if this competition were done in the CoP system, there would be a Caller to announce that the second jump of the triple was underrotated if that was what he saw. I don't think it would have changed the outcome. Shizuka had the roar of the crowd.

    Joe

  3. #33
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    My own personal thoughts on that was it all happened during the 6.0 system., and what did it matter whether it was cheated or not? The LP was part of the comparison look at skaters and Shiz's 3x3s looked impressive. I'm sure some judges saw cheats (if there were any) others didn't or didn't want to.

    Now, if this competition were done in the CoP system, there would be a Caller to announce that the second jump of the triple was underrotated if that was what he saw. I don't think it would have changed the outcome. Shizuka had the roar of the crowd.

    Joe
    I agree that underrotated or not, Shizuka was the worthy winner of the world title, ultimately, as you say, we don't know how the judges dealt with the underrotated jumps under 6.0 but the base mark for the two 3/3s in Shizuka's LP had her doing On paper) the most diffcult programme, jumpwise, of any skater. Under 6.0 the jumps were always were the emphasis was.

    Ant

  4. #34
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I wish Michael Weiss would have had a chance to compete under CoP judging. All those two-footed quads would have counted (with only a -2 GOE) under the NJS.

  5. #35
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    Weiss DID compete under the CoP system. He skated at TEB last season, and at SA and NHK in the 2004-2005 season, and he even won bronze in the GPF in the 2003-2004 season. His problems were not only his two-foot quad, but also the 3A, which was often not a secure jump for him. His music selections and his wife's choreography didn't help him much, either.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng View Post
    You never know. Had Kwan knew after the fact, she wouldn't jump herself out of the final game.
    She had jumped herself out of the game long before the Olympics. If she has to get hip surgery (as it is rumored), she didn't sustain that injury through a few seasons of skating. Hip surgery is usually the result of years of wear and tear. Just doing 3-2s and lots of triples will break down a hip. There isn't something magical about a 3-3 combo that will automatically yield a hip injury. Midori (and Shizuka) have done lots of 3-3s and Midori even did 3 axels and attempted quads in practice (she broke her leg on a quad in the early 80's) and they have not injured their hips (at least that I know of).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I agree that underrotated or not, Shizuka was the worthy winner of the world title, ultimately, as you say, we don't know how the judges dealt with the underrotated jumps under 6.0 but the base mark for the two 3/3s in Shizuka's LP had her doing On paper) the most diffcult programme, jumpwise, of any skater. Under 6.0 the jumps were always were the emphasis was.

    Ant
    There would have been a huge stink if the caller didn't give the benefit of the doubt to Shiz if she had done a 3-3-3 combo. With no one attempting such a combo, Shiz would have gotten some leniency on her "underrotation". I don't think Shiz underrotates as much as lands on a really deep edge and she doesn't appear to first land on her toe pick like other skaters.

  8. #38
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    Speaking of her 3-3-3, does anyone have the video of the practice session where Shizuka did it? It was on Youtube but I can't find it anymore.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by inloveagain View Post
    I believe her shortcoming at the Jr. Worlds was due to pressure of defending the title.
    I thought it was just a lack of competitive edge. I do agree, though, her 3A at Japan Open (and both of them at the Japanese Nationals) was fully rotated and clean.

    Regarding the 3-3: I think Sasha put it best when she said that you get more points if you just stay on your feet. Maybe the ladies who start out with a 3-2 decide not to add that extra rotation because it hasn't gotten to the point where a 3-3 is absolutely essential to win.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I wish Michael Weiss would have had a chance to compete under CoP judging. All those two-footed quads would have counted (with only a -2 GOE) under the NJS.
    And his 4Lz would have been ratified, no?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by soogar View Post
    There would have been a huge stink if the caller didn't give the benefit of the doubt to Shiz if she had done a 3-3-3 combo. With no one attempting such a combo, Shiz would have gotten some leniency on her "underrotation".
    I don't see any evidence that the callers were giving anyone leniency, regardless of the crowd's reaction. Arakawa has been getting downgrades under CoP for two years now, and if anything, it would have been expected. I don't think the callers would have given Kostner the benefit of the doubt, if she attempted a 3/3/3 and underrotated it.

  12. #42
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228 View Post
    And his 4Lz would have been ratified, no?
    His Nagano quad Lutz would have been - it was fully rotate with a touch down with the free toe.

    Ant

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21 View Post
    Arakawa was practicing 3/3s at the Olympics but not do one in her program. I was surprised and dissapointed she did not. She had already known Cohen had made two major errors probably so that might be why, but Irina was still to come and she still did not unleash all her artillery. Maybe she already know Irina was not physicaly up to lasting the long program though by that point, I dont know.
    I think that it was a wise decision by Arakawa´s coach for her not to do triple-triples at the Olympic freeskate. She performed a faultless freeskate and because of that she did beat Cohen and put a huuuuge pressure on Slutskaya who was the last to skate.

    Personally, I don´t know whether Arakawa aimed for silver or gold medal. Slutskaya had been rather strong the whole season and by performing a faultless freeskate Arakawa ensured at least a sure silver medal, because Cohen had already skated.
    Last edited by Jaana; 08-24-2006 at 05:07 AM.

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