What became of the triple-triple? | Golden Skate

What became of the triple-triple?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?

In the Olympic free skate, unless I missed something glancing at the protocols, only one lady tried a triple-triple. That was Elene Gedevanishvili. She got a negative GOE on the element, plus got 0 credit for her last jump for a Zayak violation (she did 2A+3T, 3Lz+3T and solo 3T), and finished 13th.

Meanwhile...Arakawa, no 3/3; Cohen, no 3/3; Slutskaya, no 3/3; Suguri, no 3/3; Rochette, no 3/3; Meissner, no 3/3; Hughes, no 3/3;...

Are we going backwards technically?

At Worlds, as far as I can see only one skater did a triple-triple. Meissner did two, and the judges went so crazy for her that they gave her PCSs seven points higher than her previous personal best.

What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
I think a triple-triple is of huge benefit to the women to do, not only in the TES value points they gain, but like you said the inevitable boost it seems to give your PCS scores. I cant imagine Meissner having gotten anywhere near as high of PCS as she received without doing the triple-triples. Slutskaya gets a big boost in her PCS to when she does a triple-triple, like happened at Worlds in Moscow last year.

Arakawa was practicing 3/3s at the Olympics but not do one in her program. I was surprised and dissapointed she did not. She had already known Cohen had made two major errors probably so that might be why, but Irina was still to come and she still did not unleash all her artillery. Maybe she already know Irina was not physicaly up to lasting the long program though by that point, I dont know.

Cohen used to do a triple lutz-triple toe, or atleast attempt it often, but not anymore.
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Actually, the ladies haven't been doing the 3/3's consistently at all for a long time now ... with a few exceptions. That's why I could never grasp the constant nagging Michelle got for not doing them. And at this past Olympics it was even more ironic ... that the one Olympics Michelle couldn't compete in because of an injury, was the one where nobody (including the OGM) even tried one.

MM, I'm sure some of the youngsters will try them ... and some will get injured, I'm sure. I don't know if the sport is going backwards in this regard ... maybe it's a good thing. Wouldn't it be nice to see folks leave their eligible careers in one piece. ;)
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Arakawa was practicing 3/3s at the Olympics but not do one in her program. I was surprised and dissapointed she did not. She had already known Cohen had made two major errors probably so that might be why, but Irina was still to come and she still did not unleash all her artillery.
Japan had not medalled in Torino, and there was pressure on Arakawa to get a medal, any medal, with the possibility of two medals for Japan if Suguri did well. By attempting 3/3's, she could have risked landing off the podium, especially with Suguri and Meissner to follow as well as Slutskaya.

Slutskaya's best chances for a 3/3 were scuttled when she did not land five of her seven jumps cleanly. But she's never had a good record for winning when she wasn't significantly ahead after the SP or ahead by enough that the base content of her closest competitor to follow couldn't match hers (Moscow Worlds, Lyon Euros).
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I recall a Slutskaya interview just before Torino where she said she wasn't going to do a 3/3 in her FS. She hoped the judges would continue to prop up her PCS scores so that sh wouldn't need to do the 3/3. Arakawa may have either read the interview or heard about it from Tarasova.

Sasha was the leader after the SP and had been Irina's main competition (aside from Asada) since Irina's return to competition. Once Sasha blew her FS, Shizuka correctly gambled that Irina wouldn't feel any need to add a 3/3.
 

Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?.

What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?

Mathman...you may have answered your own question....A Blades on Ice Article you linked to back in the July (News section online),
has a partial answer as well as the August News online written by Alexandra Stevenson, who wrote up Broadmoor results and Liberty results...has Ashley Wagner, who competed Jr Ladies at Liberty doing 3T 3T sequence, with a quote somewhere about getting at least one 3/3 combo in her long this season, if not two.
https://bladesonice.com/blaweb1.htm

She competes this week at the JGP in France, so lets see what the younger set of skaters is bringing to the table.

Alexandra also mentioned in the July article something about a jump event at the Broadmoor Open where Rachael Flatt did 3Lz/3T on her first try,
https://bladesonice.com/oldnews1.htm

so it seems as if the younger kids are looking to up the ante. And, hopefully without injury.
 
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temperboy28

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
I recall a Slutskaya interview just before Torino where she said she wasn't going to do a 3/3 in her FS. She hoped the judges would continue to prop up her PCS scores so that sh wouldn't need to do the 3/3. Arakawa may have either read the interview or heard about it from Tarasova.

Sasha was the leader after the SP and had been Irina's main competition (aside from Asada) since Irina's return to competition. Once Sasha blew her FS, Shizuka correctly gambled that Irina wouldn't feel any need to add a 3/3.

Yeah but if Irina had skated great performance even without the 3/3 she probably would have won. Shizuka still took a risk probably by not doing a triple-triple combination.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think it was a risk either way. On the one hand, as I recall Shizuka had totally psyched out the other ladies at practice because she was the only one landing her 3/3s. This, too, may have played a role in the tentativeness that we saw in Sasha and Irina.

But on the other, Shizuka had a long history of having her 3/3s (rather, her 3 / 2-and-a-halfs) downgraded by the international judges, so maybe she was a little hesitant, too.

I read afterward that the decision to leave out the first 3/3 was made by her coach beforehand. She still intended to try the second, but she did not have enough speed going into the first jump.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
I think it was a risk either way. On the one hand, as I recall Shizuka had totally psyched out the other ladies at practice because she was the only one landing her 3/3s. This, too, may have played a role in the tentativeness that we saw in Sasha and Irina.

But on the other, Shizuka had a long history of having her 3/3s (rather, her 3 / 2-and-a-halfs) downgraded by the international judges, so maybe she was a little hesitant, too.

I read afterward that the decision to leave out the first 3/3 was made by her coach beforehand. She still intended to try the second, but she did not have enough speed going into the first jump.

So she did intend to do the second 3/3, that is interesting. So with the second 3/3 not coming off, as she was planning for it too, and a doubled triple loop she actually did far less of a performance then what she even went out planning to do and still won quite easily in the end.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
By the way Mathman do you think Arakawa's 2004 Worlds winning performance would have had the two 3/3s ratified had COP been used? I believe that day they were fully rotated, I would probably check on film sometime though. She would have had 2 jumps in the short program that year though downgraded to doubles if I recall correctly which would have killed her, not only her triple-triple combo, but her triple flip. Her triple flip was downgraded in the short program twice this year as well.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
As a weak-eyed armchair quarterback, I find it utterly impossible to tell whether a jump is fully rotated or not. The skater is already starting the rotation at the take-off, plus she is turning on the landing. I don't see how it is possible -- I know I can't do it -- to decide exactly what the angle of the blade was at the split second of take-off and landing.

I guess that is why they give the skaters a fudge factor of a full 90 degrees before they say, nope, that rotation was not just short, it was TOO short.

I don't envy the tech specialists and judges in their jobs.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
BTW, the CoP gives the ladies an out, if they can't do a triple-triple. Just tack a double loop on the end of everything.

The judging system allows one three-jump combo and two more two-jump combos. So, for instance, in Mao Asada's winning Grand Prix Finals FP her last three jumping passes went

3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
3F+2Lo
3Lz+2Lo

That's an extra 4 2-loops for free! for a total of 6.6 extra points (24.8 points altogether), including the end-of-the-program bonus.

At 2005 World's Stutskaya started out with

3Lz+3Lo
3S+2Lo+2T
3Lo
3Lo+2Lo.

If she had changed her first 3Lo and her 2T both to 2-loops she would have got an extra 1.7 points!
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
It seems the ladies have been told since what Calgary 1988 that must have a 3/3 to be competetive? Can anyone who is up on statistics list how many successful 3/3s have been landed by the ladies in each Olympics and Worlds since then? Are the numbers going up, down, no change? Can it be that a 3/3 is not a realistic expectation if we want skaters to maintain their health?
 

anything_for_skating

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Why don't the ladies do triple-triples any more? Is there something about the CoP than subtly discourages them?

In the Olympic free skate, unless I missed something glancing at the protocols, only one lady tried a triple-triple. That was Elene Gedevanishvili. She got a negative GOE on the element, plus got 0 credit for her last jump for a Zayak violation (she did 2A+3T, 3Lz+3T and solo 3T), and finished 13th.

Meanwhile...Arakawa, no 3/3; Cohen, no 3/3; Slutskaya, no 3/3; Suguri, no 3/3; Rochette, no 3/3; Meissner, no 3/3; Hughes, no 3/3;...

Are we going backwards technically?

At Worlds, as far as I can see only one skater did a triple-triple. Meissner did two, and the judges went so crazy for her that they gave her PCSs seven points higher than her previous personal best.

What can we expect from the next wave? I don't think Mao Asada has a 3/3. Yu-Na Kim did 3F/3T at junior worlds. Who else is going to come out looking to "up the ante" (as they say)?


Caro Kostner does 3-3-3 combo :)
http://ejibk.funpic.de/Carolina Kostner - 333 combo.wmv
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I get the funny feeling that with this newer generation, the 3-3 will re-surface...
 

riverflows

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Not sure about the other skaters, but Mao Asada has a beautiful 3Lu-3Lo in her SP of last season. In the long though, all her combinations are in the end, and the combinations aren't toe-loops, they're loops. If she can up her TES points like that and still maintain good health, then more power to her I say.
 

BravesSkateFan

Medalist
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
I don't think the CoP so much discourages 3/3 as it does encourage "playing the system." In the past it a lot of skaters used the 3/3 as a way to boost thier scores if they felt they were behind other skaters either technically or artistically. It was really the only concrete way to get results. Now they can play the system to get points. A change of position here or tacking on a double loop there all add up without the risk of a 3/3.

While there has been a decline in 3/3s practically everyone is doing a 3 jump combo which prior to the CoP was almost never done Its less risky and gives similar results.

As far as the younger crop goes I think we'll see more 3/3's from them simply because they were perfecting them before CoP in order to compete with the veternans once they reached senior ranks.

The way I see it, under 6.0 the 3/3 in most cases was used as a technical booster, while under CoP its just another element you put in the program if its something you can do well. Its funny because Jumps used to be put in only if you could do them well, while with things like sprials and spins the skaters just did what they did well. Now its completely reversed and we are basically just seeing the jumps skaters do best, but they will attempt all sorts of sprials and spins regardless of how well they do them.
 
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