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Thread: So you want to Judge the Ladies?

  1. #1
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    So you want to Judge the Ladies?

    This is a different approach than before, It was icky sticky and just not as much fun as it could have been. So I am going to keep it simple.
    The names are linked to YouTube (ick) so I hope you have access to the video already or you will have to deal with the pour quality. Better than nothing I 'spose.

    Mathman will do the Adding J/K I will do it ...well.... unless he wants to.

    First 12 to lend their scores I will (re)post results in a neat little package.
    You could cut n paste or quote and add in the quote, put your score at the end of each line - fairly self explanatory.

    Just enter anything from +3 to -3 for each of the 8 elements listed, just like a Judge - your score last column. Then add the number to the PCS - in increments of .25

    Elena Sokolova's SP
    Element---------Base-----Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+combo.......6.0........+
    1Lo....................0.5.........+
    FCSp3...............2.3........+
    SpSt3................3.1.........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    LSp3..................1.8........+
    CiSt2..................2.3........+
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Sarah Meier's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+
    3F......................5.5.........+
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+
    SpSt3................3.1........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    FSSp3................2.3........+
    SlSt2..................2.3........+
    LSp3..................1.8.........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Carolina Kostner's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3F+combo.........5.5........+
    3Lo....................5.0.........+
    FCSp3...............2.3........+
    SpSt3................3.1.........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    SlSt3..................3.1........+
    CCoSp3.............3.0........+
    LSp3..................1.8.........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Kimmie Meissner's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+3T.............10.0........+
    3F......................5.5.........+
    LSp3.................1.8.........+
    SpSt3................3.1........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+
    SlSt2..................2.3........+
    FSSp4................3.0........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Shizuka Arakawa's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+
    3F......................5.5........+
    FCSp4..............3.0.........+
    SpSt4................3.4........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    LSp4..................2.4........+
    SlSt3..................3.1........+
    CCoSp4............3.5.........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Sasha Cohen's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+
    3F......................5.5........+
    FSSp3...............2.3........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    SpSt4................3.4........+
    LSp4..................2.4........+
    SlSt3..................3.1........+
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Irina Slutskaya's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+
    3F......................5.5........+
    2A......................3.3........+
    FCSp4...............3.0........+
    SpSt4................3.4........+
    LSp4..................2.4........+
    SlSt3..................3.1........+
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................

    Fumie Suguri's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+
    3F......................5.5........+
    SpSt3................3.1........+
    2A.....................3.3........+
    FSSp3...............2.3........+
    LSp3..................1.8........+
    SlSt3..................3.1........+
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+
    Skating Skills ...........................
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..
    Performance / Execution .........
    Choreography / Composition....
    Interpretation.............................


    Have fun

    I 'spose if you want, you can PM the scores to me and stay anonymous.
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 08-27-2006 at 09:33 PM.

  2. #2
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Is this too many to vote on?

    OK, Pick whoever and vote on them. I thought this might be fun?

    Please vote I really want to know what you thought / think.
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 08-27-2006 at 05:04 PM.

  3. #3
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    Can I make a suggestion? People who want to judge, don't do any math and definitely don't pretend to be a whole panel of judges after averaging.

    For the elements, just give grades of execution of -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, or 3.

    For the components, just give marks in increments of 0.25. -- e.g., 5.0, 5.25, 5.5, 5.75, 6.0, 6.25, etc.

    Those are the numbers that real judges use -- look at the protocols in the columns that break down the scores by individual judge for examples.

    If there are enough judges and if someone volunteers to do the accounting, we could get final scores for the panel that resemble the final scores in a real competition after the accountants have crunched all the numbers.

    But whether we get final panel marks or just the individual GOEs and components from a few Golden Skate judges, I would be interested in discussing the reasoning behind those GOEs and components.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Can I make a suggestion? People who want to judge, don't do any math and definitely don't pretend to be a whole panel of judges after averaging.
    That was my intent. No one does math, just adds 3 or 2 or 1 or 0 or -1 or -2 or -3, in the last column.
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    For the components, just give marks in increments of 0.25. -- e.g., 5.0, 5.25, 5.5, 5.75, 6.0, 6.25, etc.
    That I thought would be optional becase the last time I did this it was asking so much. I thought I would just ask for the one Judges role only this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But whether we get final panel marks or just the individual GOEs and components from a few Golden Skate judges, I would be interested in discussing the reasoning behind those GOEs and components.
    Me too

    Here is the "scores" as supplied by MM. What a guy
    http://www.isufs.org/results/owg2006..._SP_Scores.pdf
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 08-27-2006 at 05:52 PM.

  5. #5
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I'll be glad to help with the math. The only thing you really need to know is how to factor and average the GOEs and PCSs after all the judges key in their scores. (If 12 people submit scores, first I'll have to do a random draw, then trim the mean, LOL.)

    One suggestion. The second column of numbers that you gave us -- that IS the summary of GOEs given by the actual judging panel. If we are supposed to be the judges, we should not see these numbers. Afterward we can compute our averages and compare it to the averages of the actual judging panel. But with the numbers right there in our face, that will prejudice us -- like, I already know I am not going to make a fool of myself by giving Sokolova only a -1 GOE on her first element when I can see that most of the panel gave her a -3.

    That [awarding program component scores] I thought would be optional becase the last time I did this it was asking so much. I thought I would just ask for the Judges role only this time.
    Giving out PCSs (6.25, 6.50, etc., in each of the five categories) IS part of the judges role. What made it "too much to ask" was if we also had to play the tech specialist's role. too, and call the elements, together with levels.

    Hehe, I love GKelly's idea to hold the judges accountable for their marks by making us explain them. NO SEKRET JUDGING!

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-27-2006 at 05:56 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I'll be glad to help with the math. The only thing you really need to know is how to factor and average the GOEs and PCSs after all the judges key in their scores. (If 12 people submit scores, first I'll have to do a random draw, then trim the mean, LOL.)
    Your so cool, could you have your "class" do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    One suggestion. The second column of numbers that you gave us -- that IS the summary of GOEs given by the actual judging panel. If we are suppoed to be the judges, we should not see these numbers. Afterward we can compute our averages and compare it to the averages of the actual judging panel. But with the numbers right there in our face, that will prejudice us -- like, I already know I am not going to make a fool of myself by giving Sokolova only a -1 GOE on her first element when I can see that most of the panel gave her a -3.
    So I should take them out.?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Giving out PCSs (6.25, 6.50, etc., in each of the five categories IS part of the judges role. What made it "too much to ask" was if we also had to play the tech specialist's role. too, and call the elements, together with levels.
    So I should put those lines Back in, and expect those too. ?
    PCS does not seem that difficult.

  7. #7
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    So I should take them out.?
    Yes, I think so. (You can see by GKelly's post above that they caused some confusion as to whether we were trying to be "a judge" or trying to recreate the average of a whole panel of judges.)
    So I should put those lines back in, and expect those too.?
    Yes. Don't give any numbers, just leave five blank spaces with appropriate headings.
    PCS does not seem that difficult.
    Easy to do, hard to do right.

    There are specific criteria for each of the five components. A judge who just says, "Fumie skated pretty, I'll give her 7.75 across the board," will have a whole lotta 'splainin' to do, once the Golden Skate Judges' Evaluation Committee declares open season. ("Transitions? What transitions?!")

  8. #8
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I noticed that all of these short programs are front-loaded in terms of jumps. Don't you get a 10% second half bonus in the SP?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Don't you get a 10% second half bonus in the SP?
    No, that only applies in the LP.

    You can consider the element layout in the choreography mark if you like.

  10. #10
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanibu
    ...could you have your "class" do it?
    I’m not teaching statistics this semester, but there is lots of good stuff in the judging protocols for interesting investigations at the undergraduate level. For instance, there are statistical tests to measure the relative amount of agreement or disagreement in a panel of judges, and whether there is evidence that suggests certain judges are collaborating.

    Or – what is the probability, under various hypotheses, that the random draw will significantly affect the result.

    In fact, I have used the two judging systems to illustrate the difference between parametric (CoP) and non-parametric (ordinals) statistical inference.

    MM

  11. #11
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    I am going to be brave

    As I watched I would pause after the element, and put in the score, then at the end I reflected.
    It took under and hour with a break. So all of you that have your scorecards, give'm up please. You can PM me and I will put it in the first post format for you if you want - like below. Just tell me if you want to be anonymous.


    SeaniBu's scores

    Sokolova
    Element---------Base-----Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+combo.......6.0........ -3
    1Lo....................0.5......... -3
    FCSp3...............2.3........ 0
    SpSt3................3.1......... 0
    2A......................3.3........ +2
    LSp3..................1.8........ -1
    CiSt2..................2.3........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ 0
    Skating Skills ...........................6.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 6.75
    Performance / Execution .........6.0
    Choreography / Composition....6.0
    Interpretation.............................6.0

    Meier

    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5......... +2
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +2
    SpSt3................3.1........ 0
    2A......................3.3........ -1
    FSSp3................2.3........ +1
    SlSt2..................2.3........ 0
    LSp3..................1.8......... 0
    Skating Skills ...........................6.5
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 6.0
    Performance / Execution .........7.0
    Choreography / Composition....7.0
    Interpretation.............................7.0

    Kostner
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3F+combo.........5.5........ -3
    3Lo....................5.0......... 0
    FCSp3...............2.3........ +1
    SpSt3................3.1......... +1
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +2
    CCoSp3.............3.0........ 0
    LSp3..................1.8......... 0
    Skating Skills ...........................7.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 8.0
    Performance / Execution .........6.75
    Choreography / Composition....7.0
    Interpretation.............................7.0

    Meissner
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+3T.............10.0........ +1
    3F......................5.5......... +1
    LSp3.................1.8......... +2
    SpSt3................3.1........ 0
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +1
    SlSt2..................2.3........ 0
    FSSp4................3.0........ 0
    Skating Skills ...........................7.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 7.0
    Performance / Execution .........7.0
    Choreography / Composition....8.0
    Interpretation.............................6.5

    Arakawa
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ -1
    3F......................5.5........ +1
    FCSp4..............3.0......... 0
    SpSt4................3.4........ +1
    2A......................3.3........ +2
    LSp4..................2.4........ +1
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +2
    CCoSp4............3.5......... +1
    Skating Skills ...........................7.75
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 8.0
    Performance / Execution .........7.5
    Choreography / Composition....7.75
    Interpretation.............................7.5

    Cohen
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5........ +1
    FSSp3...............2.3........ +2
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    SpSt4................3.4........ +2
    LSp4..................2.4........ +1
    SlSt3..................3.1........ 0
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +2
    Skating Skills ...........................7.5
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 7.5
    Performance / Execution .........8.75
    Choreography / Composition.... 8.0
    Interpretation............................. 8.0

    Slutskaya
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5........ +2
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    FCSp4...............3.0........ +1
    SpSt4................3.4........ 0
    LSp4..................2.4........ +2
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +2
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +1
    Skating Skills ...........................8.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..8.0
    Performance / Execution .........7.5
    Choreography / Composition....7.25
    Interpretation.............................7.25

    Suguri
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5........ +2
    SpSt3................3.1........ +1
    2A.....................3.3........ +2
    FSSp3...............2.3........ +1
    LSp3..................1.8........ 0
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +2
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ 0
    Skating Skills ........................... 7.5
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 7.75
    Performance / Execution ......... 8.0
    Choreography / Composition.... 8.5
    Interpretation............................. 8.25


    Now if a self taught only recently serious about tech - trying to learn rather then just "absorb" for around a year now - is sticking my neck out I am sure a majority of you have better qualifications than I.

    You can remain anonymous and I will assign a number to your "card" and if anyone has issues and you want to respond I could take your response in a PM and post it as "Judge 7" or something.
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 09-05-2006 at 11:52 PM.

  12. #12
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    Judge #2

    Sokolova
    Element---------Base-----Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+combo.......6.0........ -3
    1Lo....................0.5......... -3
    FCSp3...............2.3........ 0
    SpSt3................3.1......... 0
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    LSp3..................1.8........ 0
    CiSt2..................2.3........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ 0
    Skating Skills ...........................6.0
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 6.25
    Performance / Execution .........6.5
    Choreography / Composition....6.25
    Interpretation.............................6.5

    Meier
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5......... +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +1
    SpSt3................3.1........ 0
    2A......................3.3........ -1
    FSSp3................2.3........ +1
    SlSt2..................2.3........ 0
    LSp3..................1.8......... 0
    Skating Skills ...........................5.75
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 5.5
    Performance / Execution .........6.0
    Choreography / Composition....5.75
    Interpretation.............................5.5

    Kostner
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3F+combo.........5.5........ -3
    3Lo....................5.0......... +1
    FCSp3...............2.3........ +1
    SpSt3................3.1......... 0
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +1
    CCoSp3.............3.0........ 0
    LSp3..................1.8......... -1
    Skating Skills ...........................8.0
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 7.25
    Performance / Execution .........7.0
    Choreography / Composition....7.5
    Interpretation.............................7.0

    Meissner
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+3T.............10.0........ 0
    3F......................5.5......... +1
    LSp3.................1.8......... +2
    SpSt3................3.1........ +1
    2A......................3.3........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +1
    SlSt2..................2.3........ +1
    FSSp4................3.0........ 0
    Skating Skills ...........................7.0
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 6.5
    Performance / Execution .........7.0
    Choreography / Composition....7.0
    Interpretation.............................6.5

    Arakawa
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ 0
    3F......................5.5........ +1
    FCSp4..............3.0......... +1
    SpSt4................3.4........ +1
    2A......................3.3........ +2
    LSp4..................2.4........ +1
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +1
    CCoSp4............3.5......... +1
    Skating Skills ...........................7.5
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 8.0
    Performance / Execution .........7.5
    Choreography / Composition....8.0
    Interpretation.............................7.75

    Cohen
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ 0
    3F......................5.5........ +1
    FSSp3...............2.3........ +2
    2A......................3.3........ 0
    SpSt4................3.4........ +2
    LSp4..................2.4........ +1
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +2
    Skating Skills ...........................7.0
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 7.5
    Performance / Execution .........8.5
    Choreography / Composition.... 8.0
    Interpretation............................. 8.5

    Slutskaya
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5........ +1
    2A......................3.3........ +2
    FCSp4...............3.0........ +2
    SpSt4................3.4........ 0
    LSp4..................2.4........ +2
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +1
    Skating Skills ...........................7.75
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..7.75
    Performance / Execution .........7.75
    Choreography / Composition....7.5
    Interpretation.............................7.5

    Suguri
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........ +1
    3F......................5.5........ +1
    SpSt3................3.1........ +1
    2A.....................3.3........ +1
    FSSp3...............2.3........ +1
    LSp3..................1.8........ 0
    SlSt3..................3.1........ +1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........ +1
    Skating Skills ........................... 7.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork.. 7.25
    Performance / Execution ......... 7.5
    Choreography / Composition.... 8.0
    Interpretation............................. 8.0

  13. #13
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    Judge #3

    Elena Sokolova's SP
    Element---------Base-----Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+combo.......6.0........-3
    1Lo....................0.5.........-3
    FCSp3...............2.3........+0
    SpSt3................3.1.........+1
    2A......................3.3........+1
    LSp3..................1.8........+0
    CiSt2..................2.3........+1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+1
    Skating Skills ...........................6.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..5.75
    Performance / Execution .........5.75
    Choreography / Composition....6.5
    Interpretation.............................6.75

    Sarah Meier's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+1
    3F......................5.5.........+2
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+1
    SpSt3................3.1........+0
    2A......................3.3........+0
    FSSp3................2.3........+1
    SlSt2..................2.3........+0
    LSp3..................1.8.........+0
    Skating Skills ...........................6.00
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..5.50
    Performance / Execution .........6.25
    Choreography / Composition....5.75
    Interpretation.............................5.75

    Carolina Kostner's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3F+combo.........5.5........-3
    3Lo....................5.0.........+0
    FCSp3...............2.3........+1
    SpSt3................3.1.........+1
    2A......................3.3........+0
    SlSt3..................3.1........+1
    CCoSp3.............3.0........+1
    LSp3..................1.8.........+0
    Skating Skills ...........................8.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..7.25
    Performance / Execution .........6.75
    Choreography / Composition....7.00
    Interpretation.............................7.50

    Kimmie Meissner's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+3T.............10.0........-1
    3F......................5.5.........+1
    LSp3.................1.8.........+1
    SpSt3................3.1........+0
    2A......................3.3........+1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+0
    SlSt2..................2.3........+0
    FSSp4................3.0........+0
    Skating Skills ...........................7.00
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..6.25
    Performance / Execution .........7.25
    Choreography / Composition....7.25
    Interpretation.............................6.75

    Shizuka Arakawa's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........-1
    3F......................5.5........+0
    FCSp4..............3.0.........+1
    SpSt4................3.4........+2
    2A......................3.3........+0
    LSp4..................2.4........+1
    SlSt3..................3.1........+2
    CCoSp4............3.5.........+1
    Skating Skills ...........................8.00
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..7.50
    Performance / Execution .........8.25
    Choreography / Composition....7.75
    Interpretation.............................8.00

    Sasha Cohen's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........-1
    3F......................5.5........+0
    FSSp3...............2.3........+1
    2A......................3.3........+0
    SpSt4................3.4........+3
    LSp4..................2.4........+1
    SlSt3..................3.1........+1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+2
    Skating Skills ...........................8.25
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..8.00
    Performance / Execution .........8.50
    Choreography / Composition....8.25
    Interpretation.............................8.00

    Irina Slutskaya's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+1
    3F......................5.5........+1
    2A......................3.3........+2
    FCSp4...............3.0........+1
    SpSt4................3.4........+0
    LSp4..................2.4........+1
    SlSt3..................3.1........+1
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+1
    Skating Skills ...........................8.50
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..7.50
    Performance / Execution .........8.25
    Choreography / Composition....7.75
    Interpretation.............................8.25

    Fumie Suguri's SP
    Element---------Base------Judge (+3 to -3)

    3Lz+2T..............7.3........+1
    3F......................5.5........+1
    SpSt3................3.1........+1
    2A.....................3.3........+1
    FSSp3...............2.3........+1
    LSp3..................1.8........+0
    SlSt3..................3.1........+2
    CCoSp4.............3.5........+1
    Skating Skills ...........................8.00
    Transitions / Linking Footwork..7.75
    Performance / Execution .........8.00
    Choreography / Composition....8.25
    Interpretation.............................8.50

    Thank You!!!!

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