The Kimmie Article

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 10, 2006

Nicely put, dizzy d. I agree, Kimmie doesn't have much in the 'special' talent area except maybe natural air rotation.

I don't think anyone was comparing her to MK.

Joe

demarinis5 · Sep 10, 2006

Joesitz said:
Sasha's interpretation of Dark Eyes shows the meaning of the character of the music. Dark Eyes is a winner for her; the judges; and the audience. That is why I believe she will win the Campbells without a 3x3. She would be a fool not to use it. I don't see her using a new routine.

Joe

I have to agree. Sasha's interpretation of Dark Eyes will be very
hard to beat if in fact she uses it at Cambells. Sasha performs that
program brilliantly.

SeaniBu · Sep 10, 2006

chuckm said:
Very, very few skaters are skating to the music. They are so intent on getting in all their elements that interepretation and expressing the character of the music goes right out the window. This was especially true of Irina this year. All I saw from her was frantic skating at lightning speed. She might as well have been skating to white noise.

That is TOO true

Her Music was pretty much that as well.

IMO, if the interpretation is lost then FS will lose a part of FS. And speaking of FS, what an opposite of the norm she is the way she places importance on the music and choreography.

As MM said " No-body does it like Fu-mi-e. sung to the Sara Lee jingle.

heyang · Sep 10, 2006

inloveagain said:
During the last 4 years, I got that 'buzz' from Ann-Patrice McDonough, Yukina Ota, Carolina Kostner and Miki Ando. Only 2 out of the 4 made it to Turino, 1 is injured and struggling to make a comeback and 1 has sadly left competitive skating. Kimmie is quite extraordinary in capturing the big win on her first Worlds, but I'm not going to predict any rosy colored future for her yet. Just like consistency is something you can't obtain from hours of practice, so is artistry. Miki Ando should know.

I agree with Mafke - the competitive fire was there from the start with Michelle - 1997 was probably Michelle's most tentative year. As for Irina, I felt the fire since she made her comeback - not so much during her early years.

I never got that buzz with Ann-Patrice and was not surprised when she retired from skating.

I think Kimmie has proven her poise and her willingness to work at her skating and her drive for results. That's a pretty good base to build upon.

For me, I want to see Kimmie improve - it's not neccessary for her to win, just prove that she wasn't a fluke.

R.D. · Sep 10, 2006

Joesitz said:
Nicely put, dizzy d. I agree, Kimmie doesn't have much in the 'special' talent area except maybe natural air rotation.

I don't think anyone was comparing her to MK.

Joe

I also agree with DizzyD.

To me, talking about Kimmie in terms of saying she may not "win five world championships and nine national titles" IS comparing her to MK in a subtle way. All forms of comparison to MK IMO are ridiculous. (of course, if it was a joke that's another thing, but there's still that reference to MK included and that's what I'm getting at.)

Spun Silver · Sep 10, 2006

Joesitz said:
Sasha's interpretation of Dark Eyes shows the meaning of the character of the music. Dark Eyes is a winner for her; the judges; and the audience. That is why I believe she will win the Campbells without a 3x3. She would be a fool not to use it. I don't see her using a new routine.

Joe

I hope you and Demarinis5 are right! One question, though: What does it mean to "win the Campbells"? I thought it was a team competition. If individual skaters are doing either SPs or LPs, can any individual win the whole competition? Wouldn't they rather win either SP or LP? And if there are only 6 or so ladies at all, and only 3 do SPs, it wouldn't mean much to win just SP.

Maybe I missed something.

R.D. · Sep 10, 2006

Maybe they're referring to point totals...as in it will score the highest # of points of them all.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 10, 2006

Spun Silver said:
I hope you and Demarinis5 are right! One question, though: What does it mean to "win the Campbells"? I thought it was a team competition. If individual skaters are doing either SPs or LPs, can any individual win the whole competition? Wouldn't they rather win either SP or LP? And if there are only 6 or so ladies at all, and only 3 do SPs, it wouldn't mean much to win just SP.

Maybe I missed something.

There is an element of a Team Competition, but in their hearts they want to be the top scorer in the whole competition.

I don't think there will be more time to do both programs what with men, pairs, and dance.

Joe

Theatregirl1122 · Sep 10, 2006

Red Dog said:
Maybe they're referring to point totals...as in it will score the highest # of points of them all.

It would have to be a really spectacular SP to score more than most world championship level LPs. But I get what you mean.

I don't really understand the whole head-to-head team competition thing. does that mean that they will put a member of each team up against eachother and whichever team has the most wins will win the team competition or will they total the points to come up with a winning team. And if they do that, then how is it head to head.

Theatregirl1122 · Sep 10, 2006

Red Dog said:
Maybe they're referring to point totals...as in it will score the highest # of points of them all.

It would have to be a really spectacular SP to score more than most world championship level LPs. But I get what you mean.

I don't think that Kimmie will ever be considered an "artist" the way some skaters are but I do think she can (and I hope will) improve her artistry.

Mathman · Sep 10, 2006

Can Dark Eyes be beat?

I agree that Sasha will probably do Dark Eyes, leaving it to Kimmie and Emily to rake in the points on the LP.

That means one of the Japanese ladies will also have to do a short program, probably Miki.

Sasha's score for Dark Eyes at the Olympics was 66.73. Her jumps were 3Lz+2t (7.3 base value), 3F (5.5) and 2A. She got negative GOEs on the combo and the Axel.

Miki's best SP was at Cup of Russia. Her jumps were ever-so-slightly harder than Sasha's (her combo was 3Lz+2Lo, 7.5). Her other elements were OK, with two level 3 spins, a level 4 spiral (!) and a level 1 footwork.

But her PCSs were only 28.76, compared to Sasha's score of 31.40 at Turin.

Could Miki beat Dark Eyes? Suppose Miki does a quad, and otherwise matches her all-time best performance. She is still more than 2 points behind Sasha.

What if they match up Mao with Sasha? Mao's all-time best SP was in the GP final last year, 64.38. She did 3F+3Lo (10.5 points) to Sasha's 3Lz+2T, and solo 3Lz to Sasha's solo 3F.

But she got only 28.08 PCSs.

Based on past judging, to beat Dark Eyes, Mao would have to do a triple-triple AND a triple Axel.

Mathman · Sep 10, 2006

We can "compare" any two skaters, even Michelle and Kimmie, in the sense of "to examine in order to note the similarities or differences of."

chuckm · Sep 10, 2006

Here are the numbers for all the Campbell's participants based on last season's Senior events:

Mao Asada
CoC: SP 62.92, FS 113.68
TEB: SP 63.96, FS 118.46
GPF: SP 64.38, FS 125.24

Miki Ando
COR: SP 60.76, FS 111.54
NHK: SP 54.56, FS 99.78
GPF: SP 56.7, FS 100.60
Torino: SP 56.00, FS 84.20

Mai Asada
4CC: SP 52.13, FS 89.52 (her only Senior international)

Sasha Cohen
TEB: SP 60.96, FS 114.16
Torino: SP 66.73, FS 116.63
Worlds: SP 66.62, FS 114.67

Kimmie Meissner
TEB: SP 44.92, FS 110.80
NHK: SP 56.10, FS 96.08
Torino: SP 59.40, FS 103.90
Worlds: SP 60.17, FS 129.70

Emily Hughes
SA: SP 38.74, FS 88.04
CoR: SP 46.56, FS 79.20
Torino: SP 57.08, FS 103.79
Worlds: SP 54.23, FS 104.84

It's pretty plain that Mai Asada is the weak link on the Japanese side. Emily Hughes is the weakest of the US ladies, but she is stronger than Mai.

Both Sasha and Miki are question marks. As long as Sasha does a SP, she has to be considered a strength (maybe, depending on whether she is doing any training). Miki had an up-and-down season last year. She gave one solid performance, at Cup of Russia, but she bombed at Japanese Nationals and in Torino. It all depends which Miki shows up this season.

Kimmie showed a steady pattern of improvement last season and from reports has been working very hard on her new programs this summer. She and Mao will most likely skate long programs. The question is whether there will be two sets of LPs and just one SP, or two SPs and one LP.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 10, 2006

I think alzheimer's is setting in. I do not remember any SP and LP in a Campbells before.

The 'Match" competitions I've seen are a mixture of 2 opposing Ladies and then 2 opposing Men, but they were ProAm comps. How do the Canadian Pairs and Dance fit into this Campbells which is new to the scheme of things?

If the TV showing is on for two nights, I have not read anything about a second showing.

Please straighten me out.

Joe

chuckm · Sep 10, 2006

The event is in two parts: Pairs / Ice Dance, which will not be televised (we'll probably get brief clips of the top performances). The Men's and Ladies events, 6 skaters in each, will be shown on two hours of TV.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=35221&type=news

"The format of the event calls for each team to compete head to head based on point accumulation under the international judging system. In ladies, Team USA and Team Japan will consist of three individuals each competing either a short program or free skate; the men's competition will consist of the same format. In pairs and ice dancing, Team USA and Team Canada will consist of four teams each: one pairs team will compete a short program and one a free skate, and one ice dancing team will compete an original dance and one a free dance."

That means each skater on a team performs either a SP or a FS, and the total points are added up. The team with the higher number of points wins.

If you have 3 skaters on a team, then there will be either two FSs and one SP or two SPs and one FS. Mao and Kimmie are good in either SP or FS, but there are more points available from the FS, so it's almost a done deal what they will do.

I would think that Mai Asada will do a SP because she's never had a FS score over 90 in any JGP event, and her 4CC FS was below 90, too. I think Sasha will do a SP simply because she's devoted very little time to training since Worlds.

The big question is will the third lady on each team be doing a SP or a FS? Miki has usual done a pretty good SP even when she wasn't skating well, and Emily is definitely a better SP skater than a FS skater. Stay tuned.

R.D. · Sep 10, 2006

I see a problem with this already, though. To make it fair BOTH teams need to do the same amount of SPs and FS's, since freeskates score more than short programs...right?

Mathman · Sep 10, 2006

Right, so they'll have to get together beforehand and agree on who will do what.

Joe is right that this is a new and sort of unusual format. In fact, it is so unusual that it makes me wonder if Sasha didn't say, well, I'll do the competition but only if you'll let me do a short program only.

The Japan Open last spring had a similar team format (Japan, North America, and Europe in both men's and ladies, no pairs or dance). But everyone had to do a regular ISU approved LP. (This killed Yagudin who not only struggled with his jumps but also got dinged by a Zayak violation.)

In the voter's choice Marshalls last December each competitor did an SP and an exhibition number. This was surely to accomodate Michelle, who could barely manage that. This was OK because it was an America only show, so it did not have to conform to ISU specifications.

BTW, not much has been made of the fact that this is the first cheesefest in a long time that has pairs and dance -- I think the first time ever in a real ISU sanctioned international competition. That's pretty cool. I hope they show it later on ESPN.

R.D. · Sep 10, 2006

I bet that's what happened with Cohen.

But before the skaters decide who will do what, the producers of the show need to come out with a clear format. How many do SPs and how many do FSs? IMO, the producers should set some guidelines and then the skaters on each team decide who will do what program. And for the ladies, they have to do this before the comp because what will they wear for it?

Also, I'm glad they're coming up with "new" formats for these events because the "tried-and-true" 1-FS-competition got a little boring after a while.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 10, 2006

Thanks Chuckum for clearing up most of this for me.

It will be a decided new format - not sort of.

A choice of SP or LP makes an 'individual winner' superfluous given the unfair distribution of scoring points. I like that concept since the competition is the first of the season and most skaters will be testing themselves with new programs and maybe new fashions - Dress Rehearsal for the upcoming big ones.

IMO, it will be a contest of LPs for Mao and Kimmie. While I think Sasha will win the SP there will be a lack of points for her to win overall. The other gals will get good feedback for their new routines.

Now, the prize money I presume will go to the winning team. Will a skater in that team argue that he/she brought in the most points and should get more money?
:rolleye:

:think: :think:

Joe

Mathman · Sep 11, 2006

The winning ladies team gets $60,000 to split equally among the three team members ($20,000 apiece). Same with the winning men's team. The losing team splits $30,000.

For the pairs/dance teams its $40,000 ($5000 for each skater) for the winners and half that for the losers.

There has been some discussion about the fact that the pairs and dancers make only one-fourth that of the singles skaters.

By way of comparison, for a Grand Prix event (where you must do a short program and a long program and an exhibition, and where you can't rely on your teammates to bail you out if you don't skate your best), the prize is $18,000 for first, $13,000 for second and $9,000 for third.

For Grand Prix events each pairs and dance team gets the same amount as a singles skater, so each individual gets half as much.

Moneywise, Sasha is smart to skip the Grand Prix and go for the cheesefests.

The Kimmie Article

Joesitz (RIP)

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

SeaniBu

heyang

R.D.

Spun Silver

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

Theatregirl1122

Theatregirl1122

Mathman

Mathman

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

R.D.

Mathman

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

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