Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's | Golden Skate

Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's

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eltamina

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Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's

May 25, 2003
How to Synchronize Our Clock and Wagner's
By BERNARD HOLLAND
New York Times

WAGNER'S operas are long only to those who expect them to be shorter. Two clocks are at work: the one on the wall and the one to which Wagner ticks. Audience members who by Act III of "Parsifal" squirm and contemplate the road home have lost the battle; others, their wristwatches slowed to a Wagnerian crawl, are entirely refreshed and genuinely sorry that these holy Wagnerian knights will now go home to dinner and we to our beds.

Wasn't it Einstein who told us that time shrinks or expands according to where we are and what we are doing? Music confirms relativity without the help of astrophysics. The Wagnerian arrives at the opera house by 6 and burrows into a drawling time continuum. The "victims" of Wagner's operas (if we may call them that) are the unsuspecting: eager novitiates wound tightly for "Die Meistersinger" and stunned by the six-hour German sitcom that stretches out before them.

Wagnerians know the jokes but laugh anyway. Prudently, they go to the bathroom and snack furtively on homemade sandwiches between acts. They never hurry and are rewarded by periodic eruptions of breathtaking music. Wagnerians abandon Wagnerian time only while monitoring the vocal health of Walther, Eva, Hans and the whole gang. "Die Meistersinger," with characteristic perversity, saves the best and the most challenging for last, and as midnight approaches at the Metropolitan Opera, everyone is tired.

Wagner annoys those who love him most. He has wrenched a contract from us, made an offer we can't refuse. We drum our fingers mentally at the garrulous self-examination, description and historic recapitulation. But we receive in exchange the days that follow, as the music seems to occupy our bodies and devour every musical memory around it. Wagner's unique quality is the power to bypass civilized discourse and descend straight to the gut.

Fiddling with time is what music is all about. Our gray hairs tell us that we cannot beat the clock, but music is our symbolic way of pushing and pulling at it according to whim. Try not to look at your watch during "Die Meistersinger"; it will only put you on the outside looking in.

Baseball is not a bad analogy for "Die Meistersinger." The patriotic self-congratulation is pretty much the same. So is the pattern of uneventfulness ruptured by moments of ecstatic excitement. But Wagner's listeners are trapped in their seats, attentive if not by desire, then by coercion. Baseball fans come and go in search of hot dogs, beer and other necessities. One of the endearingly American qualities of the Robert Wilson-Philip Glass opera "Einstein on the Beach" was the opportunity to walk to the lobby at any juncture, remain for 10 minutes, then re-enter with little danger of having missed a thing. Repetition and a glacial flow of time worked in our favor.

Where did those clocks on the wall first come from, remote as they are from the true pulse of our minds and bodies? "Real time" operates in territory foreign to the inner twitches that cause music. Real time is like an outside accountant come to audit our books. Length measured by clocks and length measured by the degree of eventfulness between Point A and Point B are different things. This is why music people keep two sets of books. One records that an Alice Tully Hall recital lasted 1 hour 40 minutes. In the other, each item performed moved to its own meter.

Compare the Chopin D flat Nocturne (four and three-quarters minutes long) and the first movement of Mahler's Third Symphony (more than a half hour). Doesn't at least as much dark vision, lyrical imagination, conflict and harmonic exploration occur in one as in the other? Chopin's modest A-B-A song form has a capacity clocks don't understand.

Why, as well, do Bruckner's symphonies seem shorter than Mahler's, though they last similar numbers of hours and minutes? Maybe it is Bruckner's orderliness against Mahler's excursive narrative. Inside Bruckner's fat symphonies lurks thin Mozartean symmetry trying to get out.

One of the oldest clichés concerning human memory is that instants in our lives can acquire the proportions of years, and years in retrospect pass in an instant. Music makes the idea a little less tired. On the other hand, if we all operated by our own clocks, no one would show up for "Die Meistersinger" at the same time.

Guerrilla warfare at "Die Meistersinger" is futile. Lateness will not rescue you, if it is rescue you seek. Never forget the famous adage: No matter how late you come to "Tristan und Isolde," there are always two more acts. Wagner wears you down until a series of points is reached: from surrender to acceptance to assimilation to helpless embrace. There is a political metaphor here, but let it pass.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's

I voted Yes hoping that means I approve of Wagner.

I started out in life as a pretensious Wagner lover but eventually I got to understand the music and the words. He did both! The Met will be doing the entire Ring this coming season as well as T&I. Also this season will be Strauss (also a favorite)work called Die Frau Ohne Schatten which I have never seen and will give it a try.

Joe
 
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Norlite1

Guest
Re: Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Are your clocks in syn with Wagner's[/quote]

My goodness, my clocks aren't even in sync with Golden Skate's! :lol:
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's

Norlite, :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

BTW, I love your flowers. Just the calming touch that we need after the hectic skating season.

Eltamina, about Wagner, am I wrong about this?: Wagner himself was such a horrible excuse for a human being that I don't listen to his music as a matter of principle. (Except maybe for Sale and Pelletire skating to Tristan and Isolde.)

Is this stupid? Wagner's dead, and I am just denying myself pleasure for nothing?

Mathman

PS. Another reason I don't like Wagner. I have a book called "The Fifity Greatest Composers of All Time," and they have the nerve to rank Wagner fourth ahead of my guy Haydn.
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Are your clocks in syn with Wgner's

Norlite - Decking the halls of Golden Skate is a great thing to do at this time of the off season.

Mathman - Best Wagner opera to start off with is Der (is it die or der?) Meistersinger. Pretty tunes and a great quintet, and you will get all stirred up at the finale.

Joe
 
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eltamina

Guest
Wagner

Joesitz, you lucky New Yorker, ah.. the met (museum and opera), the orchestras and ballet.

This country bumpkin is very jealous!!!!

Norlite, I think you will love the GS clock.

MM

You may not be denying yourself of listening pleasure. Mr. Spano ( new conductor of NY philharmonic) agrees with you

pub94.ezboard.com/fgolden...=752.topic

"I have to do some things for pleasure if I'm going to do all that Wagner," Mr. Spano says. "I have to listen to Verdi."
(from eltamina, LOL)

Wagner was an anti semite, and he stole his best friend's wife. (Cosima was the daughter of Liszt, and she married Hans V Bullow first, then later she dumped Hans for Wagner)

BTW, who was #1 in your 50 greatest composer, it must be Beethoven or Bach. Did they rank Wagner ahead of my guy WAM?

Back to topic, since I have problem attending to the 4 - 6 hrs Wagner, I am more in syn with these kinds of operas :rollin:

www.lapiccolaopera.com/aboutus.htm
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Wagner

Wagner's so-called antisemitism if more likely better known than his music. While his politics is not to my liking, it has nothing to do with my liking his music. Check out the movie with Richard Burton. Very well made.

I don't believe books should be burned and I don't believe Wagner should be banned. I do not think Mr. Spano should be in that job with such a prejudiced remark. Verdi is fine but he doesn't overwhelm me until Aida, Othello and Flagstaff.

We do have a lot of high brow culture in NYC but it doesn't come cheaply. One has to be selective. Don't feel envious, Eltamina.

And mm, I did enjoy S&P's rendition of T&I. Wagner's music is not made for dancing and they did an exemplary job.

Joe
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: Wagner

Eltamina, Here are the top 10, according to "Classical Music: The 50 Greatest Composres and Their 1,000 Greatest Works" by Phil G. Goulding: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Haydn, Brahms, Shubert, Schumann, Handel and Tchaikovsky.

Joe, I wouldn't say that Wagner's anti-Semitism is "so-called." He wrote a book about it, still in print, explaining why Jews are genetically unable to compose good music.

Another great person who was a meany as a human being was Isaac Newton. They even say unflattering things about our goddess Sonja Henie's off-ice behavior.

Anyway, about Wagner's music. I do like orchestral excerpts -- music sans voice -- a lot. My favorite is the treatment of Wagnerian themes by Stokowski. Sale and Pelletier's version is by film composer Waxman, featuring a piano in the place of voices.

Mathman
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Wagner

Mathman - Wagner believed in the genetic thing? I think people of that era did believe in that sort of thing. Would he still have believed if he were alive today? I doubt it. I would even go so far as to say, he would shorten his operas because he could make more money. There are lots of reasons to dislike Richard but music isn't one of them.

And genetics, isn't there a Russian biophysist who was saying that negroid race is behind the caucasian race?

On Sonia - Milton Berle (a Jew - who worked with her) when he was questioned about her Pro Nazi stance said that she was not at all Pro Nazi, she was too busy being Pro Sonia. This is true, from friends who were in her ice shows said, she would fire any skater (m or f) who was blonder than she was.

Her salute at the Olympics in 35 was what Europeans do for Heads of States. She was not the only athlete saluting.

Joe
 
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eltamina

Guest
Joesitz, MM and fellow Mozart synchronizer

First thing first, who agreed with me, who is in syn with Mozart's clock?

Joesitz, and MM I perfectly understand, we can separate the enjoyment of music from the rest of the stuff, i.e. set aside everything just for listening pleasure. That is not exactly the easiest to do, but it is doable.

I have to check out the Gouding book from the library, 50 composer X 100 pieces/ composer = 5000 pieces of music. What I don't understand is why did Gouding have the need to rank them. I dare not, for fear of offending music gods.

Haha.. I am glad WAM is ranked so high though :)

I too thought Hadyn should be ranked higher than Wagner. Hadyn's contributiion to music in terms of advancing the symphony, and quartet genre was tremendous.

Besides the awesome operas, what had Wagner done?

A quick search of Wagner's non operatic music:
Piano sonatas (two early from 1829 (lost), in Bb, WWV21, in A, WWV26 both from 1831, in Ab, WWV85, 1853), early string quartets (lost), another symphony (fragmentary, in E, WWV 35, 1834), a piano fantasy (WWV22) and polonaises (WWV23) from 1831, several concert overtures (several early from 1830 (lost), Faust ov. from 1839/1855. Siegfried Kaisermarsch from 1871 apparently uses chorus, as does der Tag Erscheint of 1843. There were several marches including a commissioned march for the American bicentennial of 1876. None of them are too distinguished musically and bear out Wagner's contention that he could rarely write good music unless a dramatic scene was inspiring him.

<span style="color:red;font-size:x-small;">BTW, MM since you have the book, out of the 100 great pieces listed under Wagner, how many pieces operatic music?</span>

<span style="color:blue;font-size:x-small;">I was surprise that LVB was ranked behind WAM at first glance. I think the only explanation is that Beethoven only wrote one opera Fidelio, and Mozart trumped LVB in that area. LVB only composed one v cto, but it was/is the concertos of concertos. Of course not too many peoplce can really debate that JB Bach is the greatest.</span>

Well here is something macabre... Ah... Cosima. See how she treat her dying father? (scroll down) I wonder if Wagner received the same treatment. Hmm interestring, back in Liszt days there were groupies?
www.thisislondon.co.uk/en...?version=1

The other book, The Death of Franz Liszt (Cornell University Press), is grippingly macabre, with moments of graveyard farce. Alan Walker, whose threevolume biography of Liszt may be designated definitive, found, and published, a diary kept by Lina Schmalhausen, describing the composer's final days. Lina was part of a circle of besotted young women who kissed Liszt's cassock-tails.

She had been accused of petty pilfering, but the enfeebled old Abbé, barely able to stand on swollen legs, let her accompany him on his late travels. They were seen, here and there, holding hands.

In July 1886, Liszt summoned Lina to join him at Bayreuth where his daughter, Cosima, was organising the first festival since the death of her husband-Wagner, three years earlier. The diary that Lina wrote there for the next fortnight was so graphic that Cosima and her dynasty kept it under lock and key for a century or so. Professor Walker, whose authority is unimpeachable, declares it wholly trustworthy.

Lina excoriates the bumbling doctors of Bayreuth who treated pneumonia as if it were a common cold and the Wagner children who seldom visited their dying grandfather. "Don't let me die here," begged Liszt.

Cosima, whose relations with her father were formal to the point of frigidity, banished Lina from the house as his condition worsened, promising to keep vigil. Lina watched from the shrubbery.

Cosima took to locking the front door as she left, keeping her father a prisoner. While she was at the opera, Lina sneaked in through the servants' entrance. "Don't leave me," implored Liszt, "she won't be back for a long time." Later, through the window, she saw Cosima depart for the night without so much as a kiss to her father's forehead. At 2am, Liszt leaped out of bed in a seizure. Cosima was sent for.

She called the doctor, who took 90 minutes to arrive. Liszt was, by then, in a coma. A specialist was called the next morning. This, notes Lina acidly, was the only day that Cosima stayed constantly by her father's bedside.

Lina, perched on a bush, kept watch at the window until dawn. Awoken later that day with news of Liszt's death, she picked a posy of forget-menots and obtained Cosima's permission to press it between the Master's hands; her flowers were immortalised in the deathbed photo.

None of the Wagner children, notes Lina, wept at prayers. The body was besieged by flies and an attempt to embalm it was bungled. Cosima had to lift the corpse into the coffin and, with a servant, bundle it across the street to her own house, where dogs were let loose in the grounds to keep away unwanted visitors.

Liszt's piano pupils went on the booze; the funeral was undignified. As far as Bayreuth was concerned, it was Wagner's father-in-law who had died. "A wretched end," declares Lina
 
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Joesitz

Guest
Re: Joesitz, MM and fellow Mozart synchronizer

Eltamina - Wagner comes into his own with Der Fliegender Hollander. As for innovation in music, he is the originator of the leitmotiv which is used in every composer's composition since then including broadway shows.

He is a biggy and I don't hold much for top 100 lists. Who makes them up and what are their credentials?

Joe
 
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eltamina

Guest
Making a list and checking it twice

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>He is a biggy and I don't hold much for top 100 lists[/quote]

No doubt he is a biggy, and I don't hold much for top 50 list, but people are making the list. Even in my spare time, I nominate composers for 10 permanent and 2 rotating composer seats in the music pantheon, a place reserved for the gods. I try to justify that with a single piece of music written by them. Anyways Wagner has a permanent seat in my music (composer) pantheon. IF someone holds a gun to my head and ask me to rank 1 - 10, I would have put Wagner behind Bach, WAM, LVB, Hadyn, Brahms, maybe even Handel.

If I have to rank a list of <strong>complete musician,</strong> i.e composer + performer + educator + conductor, then Wagner probably won't make my top 10 list.

The leitmotiv (Wagnerian character's calling card) appears in Butterfly Lovers V cto too. :) He started a good tradition.
 
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