Meissner's free skate jump layout

essence_of_soy · Oct 18, 2006

Just watched Campbells and if I'm not mistaken, Meissner is planning 8 triples for her long program. If she lands everything, I believe Kimmie will be the first woman in history to land 8 triples in a free skate (post Zayak rule, that is).

Jump passes appear to be:
3flip / 3toe
3axel
3lutz / 3 toe
3 sal
3 loop
3 lutz
2axel/2toe/2loop

Also, Asada looks like she is planning two 3axels, the second one in combo with a 2toe. Not sure how many jumps in total she is planning. My guess is b/w 6 - 7.

Oscilla · Oct 18, 2006

Assuming she does two 3A, Mao's jump layout might look like this:

3A
3A+2T
3F+3Lo
3A
3F
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
3Lz

At Campbell's, her jump layout looked like this:

2A<
2A+2T
3F+3Lo
3A
3F
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
3Lz

antmanb · Oct 18, 2006

Oscilla said:
Assuming she does two 3A, Mao's jump layout might look like this:

3A
3A+2T
3F+3Lo
3A
3F
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
3Lz

Not without breaking the Zayak rule - the above example has three triple axels, a repeated flip and a repeated loop and you can only repeat two different triples again. Even if the third triple axel is substituted for a double you'd also have to lose either the extra loop or the extra flip leaving her with 6 triples tops. Asada will not be able to get an 8 triple program until she learns to do either the triple toe loop or the triple salchow.

Oscilla said:
At Campbell's, her jump layout looked like this:

2A<
2A+2T
3F+3Lo
3A
3F
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
3Lz

The protocols up at the USFSA website didn't say the first axel was a downgraded triple - it has a it marked as a 2A with -3 GOEs. The third axel was also just a double, not a triple...i don't think she a ttempted a triple axel at Campbells at all.

Ant

Oscilla · Oct 18, 2006

Sorry, that was obviously my typo. I just copied the first jump layout I typed, including the mistake.

Now that I've checked, it was marked as 2A in the USFSF protocols. The japanese commentators said she was going for a triple but had a bad take-off, though. Mao has also said something along the lines that the mistake on her 3A threw her off-balance.

flying camel · Oct 18, 2006

I missed the Campbells event. Did Kimmie have a new routine? Is her presentation any better?

Mathman · Oct 18, 2006

If Kimmie can land all that no one will be able to catch her. That's 48.6 base points, not counting bonuses and GOE. Even if she doubles a couple of her attempts, she will still be ahead of most of her rivals.

Mao really does seem to have a Zayak problem -- as Anthony points out -- due to the lack of a 3T or a 3S. (Aren't these supposed to be the easiest jumps?) If she really plans two flips and two loops (her strongest jump), then she can do only one 3 Axel. Her Campbell's layout almost makes it look like she planned three triple Axel attempts and whichever one she landed, then she would do doubles for the other two.

Mathman · Oct 18, 2006

flying camel said:
I missed the Campbells event. Did Kimmie have a new routine? Is her presentation any better?

Yes, she has a new routine. Her music is a Spanish piece called "Galicia." Supposedly this choice will help her interpret the character of the music better.

Has her presentation improved? She made quite a number of technical errors, flubbing her triple Axel attempt and falling on one of her planned triple-triples. This disrupted the flow of the program and seemed to take the wind out of her sails. So, to me, it was hard to form an opinion of her presentation skills from this performance.

She did get pretty respectable program component scores from the judges, the highest of everyone except Sasha. So I guess the judges liked her.

But then again, IMHO Mai Asada gave the prettiest performance, yet received the lowest PCSs of all six ladies, so what do I know?

antmanb · Oct 18, 2006

Mathman said:
If Kimmie can land all that no one will be able to catch her. That's 48.6 base points, not counting bonuses and GOE. Even if she doubles a couple of her attempts, she will still be ahead of most of her rivals.

Mao really does seem to have a Zayak problem -- as Anthony points out -- due to the lack of a 3T or a 3S. (Aren't these supposed to be the easiest jumps?) If she really plans two flips and two loops (her strongest jump), then she can do only one 3 Axel. Her Campbell's layout almost makes it look like she planned three triple Axel attempts and whichever one she landed, then she would do doubles for the other two.

I think Mao has said that wants to go for two double axels in her LP. That being the case maybe she has many contingencies in place in case that doesn't come off? There's a risk that she may not land the triple loop on the back of the triple flip which would leave her a triple down, maybe the repeated Flip will become somethig else if both axels and loops come off?

ONe of the axel place holders in teh program will simply be there as a double because she doesn't have any other triples she can put in...it also gves her the luxury of another attempt at the triple if she pops one of them.

As to the triples she leaves out- the footage of her skating at Japanese nationals when she was 10 or 11 includes both triple toes (which while slightly pre-rotated were not the level of toe axels you sometimes see from kids that age (look lipinski up at that age and that's what a toe axel is!) and she made a credile attempt at a triple salchow which she just stepped out of frmo landing it on an inside edge. I don't know why she doesn't at least attempt a triple salchow...at least as a back up plan shoudl everythign else fail?

Does anyone know if she even practices those jumps?

Ant

Mathman · Oct 18, 2006

You mean two triple axels in your first sentence, right?

I think it is taking a foolish risk, especially for a young skater, to try to depend on improvising on the fly or on choosing among a series of back-up plans in case Plan A doesn't work out. To me, it always seems better to skate the program that you practiced -- if you miss an element, you just miss it.

Otherwise, IMO, you run the risk that a single mistake at the beginning will throw off your whole program and lead to one miscue after another.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 18, 2006

In Mao's 3 jump combo, if I am not mistaken she did almost a full rotation on the ice before she went airborne for the double loop. She did land the 1-1/4 loop jump cleanly.

I read in these pages sometime back that a jump is only downgraded if the landing is faulty. Entrances are not important.

Can someone clear this up?

Joe

MKFSfan · Oct 18, 2006

I'm pretty sure the entrance, take-off of jump are important as well, which is why there are (should be) deductions when skaters do a flutz, lip or toe axle. I think when underrotation occurs, it's seems to occur more on the landing (well, I suppose the problem is actually in air, as in not enough height) than pre-rotation. But I do think loop jumps tend to have pre-rotation, like 1/4 turn, not as much as Mao did in her 3 jump combo.

Oscilla · Oct 18, 2006

antmanb said:
Does anyone know if she even practices those jumps?

Ant

I saw her practicing 3T and 3S with Arutunian (I found the clips online) and they looked good. I thought she would include them in her LP, but I guess she either didn't feel 100% comfortable with them yet, or she feels they are not worthy enough points to take the risk.

I don't know why she stopped doing those jumps in first palce - she had them and even made a decent attempt at 4S in an exhibition (Nagoya festival). Maybe when she started growing she had troubles with keeping all of her jumps and gave up perfecting them because of their relatively low point value..? That's only my guess, though.

I think her jump technique really started to improve under Arutunian's coaching. I can't wait to see her in a few months or so.

rain · Oct 18, 2006

flying camel said:
I missed the Campbells event. Did Kimmie have a new routine? Is her presentation any better?

While her new program wasn't perfect technically, as someone else said earlier, I did see a big step up in her presentation. I have hopes it will improve further as the season progresses and she doesn't have to think through the program as much.

On the subject of the planned jumps....I'm not a fan of overloading a program in this manner, particularly for such a young skater who should focus on her presentation more. It strikes me as OVERLY ambitious in an uneccesary way that is more likely to lead to disappointment and possible injury than victory.

Mathman · Oct 18, 2006

Oscilla said:
Maybe when she started growing she had troubles with keeping all of her jumps and gave up perfecting them because of their relatively low point value..? That's only my guess, though.

That's a tricky strategy, if it is really what Camp Mao have in mind.

For one thing, it puts all of her eggs in the triple Axel basket. If she does two triple Axels then she can maximize her point total with something like this:

3A
3A combo
3Lz
3Lz combo
3F
3Lo
2A

But even then she can't do a triple-triple combination, say a 3F-3Lo, without giving up her second Lutz and also wasting a pass at the end (another double Axel?)

brinababy87 · Oct 18, 2006

Joesitz said:
In Mao's 3 jump combo, if I am not mistaken she did almost a full rotation on the ice before she went airborne for the double loop. She did land the 1-1/4 loop jump cleanly.

I read in these pages sometime back that a jump is only downgraded if the landing is faulty. Entrances are not important.

Can someone clear this up?

Joe

Loops have a 1/2 prerotation... but it looks much more obvious as the third jump in a combo because you don't have the speed to make the rotation look more like one sweeping motion, instead of a turn around then jump.

brinababy87 · Oct 18, 2006

Oscilla said:
I saw her practicing 3T and 3S with Arutunian (I found the clips online) and they looked good. I thought she would include them in her LP, but I guess she either didn't feel 100% comfortable with them yet, or she feels they are not worthy enough points to take the risk.

I don't know why she stopped doing those jumps in first palce - she had them and even made a decent attempt at 4S in an exhibition (Nagoya festival). Maybe when she started growing she had troubles with keeping all of her jumps and gave up perfecting them because of their relatively low point value..? That's only my guess, though.

I think her jump technique really started to improve under Arutunian's coaching. I can't wait to see her in a few months or so.

Hey, where did you find these clips?

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 18, 2006

brinababy87 said:
Loops have a 1/2 prerotation... but it looks much more obvious as the third jump in a combo because you don't have the speed to make the rotation look more like one sweeping motion, instead of a turn around then jump.

But are we Wowing 3 jump combos with take off faults? and is the Tech Asst calling these as ok? as well as the judges? If they are, I can see more 3 combo jumps with the so what if the loop is cheated on the entrance.

Joe

brinababy87 · Oct 18, 2006

Joesitz said:
But are we Wowing 3 jump combos with take off faults? and is the Tech Asst calling these as ok? as well as the judges? If they are, I can see more 3 combo jumps with the so what if the loop is cheated on the entrance.

Joe

Well, it's tricky because technically, Mao's loop wasn't really prerotated any more than a loop should be. Like mentioned, all loops have a 1/2 turn before leaving the ice. If you can, try to slo-mo any video of a skater doing a loop.. What makes her last double loop look more prerotated is how she turns then jumps...

Hmm, but I guess it's kind of like the toe loop argument. Toe loops also have a prerotation to them (how much exactly is disputed, but there is one). But skaters get it downgraded when their weight distribution makes them turn around before jumping as opposed to making it look like one fluid movement, not really because it is prerotated per say. Technically perfect toe loops actually have the toe pick still on the ice for a half rotation.

Hmm, I don't really know what my point is. I guess based on the rules for the toe loop, then yeah, the last loop could eventually suffer the repercussions from the same kind of rule on prerotation.

antmanb · Oct 19, 2006

Mathman said:
You mean two triple axels in your first sentence, right?

I think it is taking a foolish risk, especially for a young skater, to try to depend on improvising on the fly or on choosing among a series of back-up plans in case Plan A doesn't work out. To me, it always seems better to skate the program that you practiced -- if you miss an element, you just miss it.

Otherwise, IMO, you run the risk that a single mistake at the beginning will throw off your whole program and lead to one miscue after another.

I don't know what happened - i posted a long one in response to this last night and it never showed?

You are right MM i did mean triple axel!!

I think maybe the layout of her jumps means that the first two axels are intended to be triples, if that happens then the flip combo will be a 3/2 instead of a 3/3 which means she's from a Zayak perspective. The only trouble with that theory is that there is a third axel AFTER the flip combo, so in theory she could pop the first axel, land the second axel as a triple...and then what? Does she go for the 3/3 and still attempt a triple axel? If shelands the 3/3 and the second 3A then she has to change one of either the triple flip or the triple loop...and it starts getting messy with too much thinking.

Unless the plan is - the third axel is always a double regardless of the previous two attempts?

I think i've probably just illustrated why MM is right and they should just do the program as they intend!

Ant

antmanb · Oct 19, 2006

Joesitz said:
In Mao's 3 jump combo, if I am not mistaken she did almost a full rotation on the ice before she went airborne for the double loop. She did land the 1-1/4 loop jump cleanly.

I read in these pages sometime back that a jump is only downgraded if the landing is faulty. Entrances are not important.

Can someone clear this up?

Joe

I don't know for sure Joe but i could have sworn the rules talk about both the entrance and landing being looked at for the purposes of downgrading.

Ant

Meissner's free skate jump layout

essence_of_soy

Oscilla

antmanb

Oscilla

flying camel

Mathman

Mathman

antmanb

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

MKFSfan

Oscilla

rain

Mathman

brinababy87

brinababy87

Joesitz (RIP)

brinababy87

antmanb

antmanb

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