Meissner's free skate jump layout

Ant - If Brinababy is correct that a skater is alowed to have a half turn on the ice for the take-off of a loop jump, it seems to me the skater is not really doing a complete loop jump regardless of the air turns. The jump should be called by another name or the definition of a loop jump should be changed.

Joe

OMG ladies are starting to be jumping mashines, I hope it's not gonna change the real joy of skating, grace and movements, and everything (you know what I mean)

Joesitz said:

Ant - If Brinababy is correct that a skater is alowed to have a half turn on the ice for the take-off of a loop jump, it seems to me the skater is not really doing a complete loop jump regardless of the air turns. The jump should be called by another name or the definition of a loop jump should be changed.

Joe

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Again i wrote i really long post and my computer crashed ARRRRGH!

If you are looking for a 360 degree jump loking at the blade of the skate then i don't think you'll ever see a "loop" unless it flows out in a different direction to which it flows in. The reason for this is simple...

By its very nature an edge skated on a blade is always turning - even the flatest of edges (contrast to being on the flat of the blade which means tracing both inside and outside edge of the skate at the same time going in a straight line) will eventually trace a circle. A spiral is so called because if you hold the position and keep going until you have no more speed, the tracing is that of a spiral going in towards the centre of a circle.

Looking at the loop (but the principle applies to the salchow too) if you sit on a RBO edge going into the jump - you are on the edge therefore are turning in the inherent direction of the edge. In order to jump at all, on ice or on land, you must bend your knee to get a spring and push off against the ice or land. If you are on a RBO edge, the action of bending your knee in order to jump will inherently deepen the edge you are on. That is the only way you can jump. BEcause of the simple laws of physics the loop jump will always have a pre-rotation of between 90 and 180 degrees, without one, you would not bend your knee and therefore not be able to jump. 3/4 of a turn on the ice is too much but somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees is good technique.

If you look in the John Misha Petkevich book he teaches both salchow and loop as "half revolution jumps". The body makes the 360 but the blade does 180. If you look at the tracing of a good loop or salchow you will see the tightening circle at the end of the tracing from the bending of the knee to jump and the shortening of the edge, followed by the graze of the toepick almost all the way round to forwards.

My coach has me think of the salchow as a waltz jump from backwards!

The issue doesn't come up as much for toe jumps because the technicuqe for certainly the toe loop and flip is to have as straight a three turn as you can and to pick straight back.

Ant

Thanks for that explanation, Antman (also Brinababy). That is very interesting.

That's a bummer about losing your posts. There was a recent upgrade to a new version of VBulletinboard software which conceivably your computer doesn't like. Some times in the past I have had to compose my long posts as a separate document, then copied and pasted into GS.

Be sure to check the box "remember me" when you log on -- otherwise you might get timed out in the middle of a post.

antmanb said:

Again i wrote i really long post and my computer crashed ARRRRGH!

If you are looking for a 360 degree jump loking at the blade of the skate then i don't think you'll ever see a "loop" unless it flows out in a different direction to which it flows in.

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Having skated too in my youth, I am very much aware of the nature of the edge jumps. I took issue with the entrance at being 1/2 turn on the ice before take-off.
Your rationale is well taken and it holds up for a 1/4 turn on the ice as well which I have no problem with.

If you watch the better skaters executing a triple loop, you will note their entrance does not go beyond the 1/4 turn on the ice., and often less. However some of those same skaters when executing a 3 jump combo with the double (or triple) loop as the 3rd jump will go much beyond even the 1/2 turn. Yet we call it a 3x3x2 when in reality it is a 3x3x1-1/2.

I also think it is possible to do combos with loop jumps if they are on the straightaway. That's how it is done on rollers and that's how Tara did them on ice. Can be quite effective if the height in the jump is there.

Joe

Mathman said:

Thanks for that explanation, Antman (also Brinababy). That is very interesting.

That's a bummer about losing your posts. There was a recent upgrade to a new version of VBulletinboard software which conceivably your computer doesn't like. Some times in the past I have had to compose my long posts as a separate document, then copied and pasted into GS.

Be sure to check the box "remember me" when you log on -- otherwise you might get timed out in the middle of a post.

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Thanks MM - i usually am remembered on this computer. BUt i will write the long posts eslewhere in furture, just in case!

Ant

Joesitz said:

Having skated too in my youth, I am very much aware of the nature of the edge jumps. I took issue with the entrance at being 1/2 turn on the ice before take-off.
Your rationale is well taken and it holds up for a 1/4 turn on the ice as well which I have no problem with.

If you watch the better skaters executing a triple loop, you will note their entrance does not go beyond the 1/4 turn on the ice., and often less. However some of those same skaters when executing a 3 jump combo with the double (or triple) loop as the 3rd jump will go much beyond even the 1/2 turn. Yet we call it a 3x3x2 when in reality it is a 3x3x1-1/2.

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I don't know about that - if you look at any elite skater doing a triple loop - i see their body only turning up to a quarter but usually the blade is more than a quarter gone - if you slow mo it and look at the toe pick as it leaves the ice its usually nearly facing forwards. Similarly an axel is very rarely one and half full revolutions looking at the blade since the first quarter turn is often initiated by the same knee bend.

I would say that any loop as the back half of a combination will nearly always have the half turn on the ice because the landing of the first jump requires a deep knee bend to land, which brings the edge round and then the jump up.

Joesitz said:

I also think it is possible to do combos with loop jumps if they are on the straightaway. That's how it is done on rollers and that's how Tara did them on ice. Can be quite effective if the height in the jump is there.
Joe

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Many skaters use two LFO three turns into their Loops with a relatively falt RBO edge heading towards the boards. I think this was how Tara did hers. My coach teaches it so that you exit the LFO three turn on the LBI edge, step wide onto a RBO edge and then push the arms and upper body round clockwise to check...this pushes the RBO behind the trailing left leg and appears to straighten the edge you're on - it actually pushes the edge around to the left so your right blade is slightly turned out and that first deepening will make you sqaure up the blade.

At any rate Tara used to do her 3Lp/3Lp going into the boards and the ladning of the last jump would be coming out away from the boards at 180 degrees from her direction in - i'm sure she did get nearly full rotation jumps

Ant

Tara did them from Board to Board in a straight line. In her gold medal win she did them in the centre of the ice and just about did the second jump from a standstill.

I'm not sure if you are saying that 1/2 turn into the ice before jumping is legal or just an opinion of yours. If legal, so be it but my opinion will be a downgrade in the last jump.:thumbsup:

Joe

Joesitz said:

I'm not sure if you are saying that 1/2 turn into the ice before jumping is legal or just an opinion of yours. If legal, so be it but my opinion will be a downgrade in the last jump.:thumbsup:

Joe

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No, it's legal. It's how you do a loop jump. :yes:

brinababy87 said:

No, it's legal. It's how you do a loop jump. :yes:

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OK no problem. So the original thought that the landing is important in a jump and the entrance is not.

Can we resolve this discussion with

Lips and Flutzes are not as important as the landings

Edge jumps can have up to 1/2 ice turns for the entrances but not for the landings.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Tara did them from Board to Board in a straight line. In her gold medal win she did them in the centre of the ice and just about did the second jump from a standstill.

I'm not sure if you are saying that 1/2 turn into the ice before jumping is legal or just an opinion of yours. If legal, so be it but my opinion will be a downgrade in the last jump.:thumbsup:

Joe

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I don't know whether the half turn on the front is legal or not because i don't think the ISU publish jump definitions at all. In my opinion i think up to half a turn on the take off for the loop is about ok - like i said between a quarter and half turn would be good for me. Many coaches teach the loop this way too so i guess it depends on teh individual caller.

Ant

Joesitz said:

OK no problem. So the original thought that the landing is important in a jump and the entrance is not.

Can we resolve this discussion with

Lips and Flutzes are not as important as the landings

Edge jumps can have up to 1/2 ice turns for the entrances but not for the landings.

Joe

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I think the two points are different - a Lip or a Flutz are faulty jumps with incorrect technique - the definition of the jump s is by their entrance edge and the Lip or Flutz goes ff the wrong edge.

Salchows and Loops have the blade doing nearly a half turn on the ice on the take off - that's how many coaches define that jump threrefore doing that does not make them wrong or faulty. I think the take off is as important as the landing a nd i think COP actually mentions both in the rules for downgrading. 3/4 of a turn on the ice for the loop (i don't think it wold be possible on the sal) would be faulty and worthy of a downgrade IMO.

Ant

Ant - If it is all legal as to what you say, I'll go along with it. However, I'm not convinced every coach teaches the 1/2 'on ice' take offs of a jumps. I'll stick with those who do not. There are many skaters who do these edge jumps with less than 1/4. But all this is just me.

Joe

The Technical Specialist can only call a cheated take-off to the toe loop jumps. Otherwise, all other jumps will received a minus GEO for poorly executed take-offs, flight position and landings. A toe-axel actioned toe loop... is called "Double toe loop" cheat >, then the judging panel will also apply the GOE to it.

Thanks Coach. I appreciate clearing that up anyway.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Ant - If it is all legal as to what you say, I'll go along with it. However, I'm not convinced every coach teaches the 1/2 'on ice' take offs of a jumps. I'll stick with those who do not. There are many skaters who do these edge jumps with less than 1/4. But all this is just me.

Joe

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Fair enough!

As a slightly related topic...at least a variation on a theme...i presume that throw jumps where the lady completes the first revolution in the man's arms is good technique too since all of the elite pairs do this...i've always wondered how much that is a cheated jump in that, should the revolutions only be counted once the lady is "thrown". An whether your definition of of the lady being "thrown" is viewed from when she leaves the ice or when she leaves her partner's grasp?

I don't really have a view or opinion i've just noticed that all elite pairs complete the first revolution while still in hold as the woman moves from in front of the man to behind the man...its easily spotted in the pairs warm ups before competitions when they warm up with singles and doubles.

Anyone have any views on this?

Ant

Good points on Throws. I'd like to hear Doris on this.

Joe