Cop question: What's worse, "popping" a jump or falling on a jump?

R.D. · Oct 19, 2006

Cop question: What's worse, "popping" a jump or falling on a jump?

Can the "experts" shed some light on this for me?

I would think falling would be worse but I suppose "popping" a jump would almost be like not doing it at all, and falling would be -1 point? hmm...:scratch:

Ptichka · Oct 19, 2006

I depends how many revolutions are completed before the fall. We all remember Buttle's fall on the quad in the Olympics that still got him credit for the quad. From the point of view of re-trying, a popped jump will still count toward the maximum number of jumping passes, but not against the Zyak rule - in other words, if you pop a triple axel, you can still retry it as long as you don't go over maximum number of jumping passes.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

No expert I, but as Ptichka points out, if you look at the numbers the whole ball game seems to be completing the revolutions, and nothing else matters much.

If you totally pop a jump (that is, just go up in the air and come back down), that's a big fat zero. For example, Emanuel Sandhu popped his triple Axel in one of his short programs two years ago and the protocols read 0A with 0 points across the board. To add insult to injury, in the short program you are not allowed to repeat a required element, so he couldn't even throw in a double Axel at the end to make up for it.

If you complete the revolutions but fall on the landing, you get full base value for the jump. Then you take a mandatory -3 GOE and an additional -1 deduction for the fall.

So for example if you fall on your triple Lutz you end up with 6.0 base value -3.0 GOE -1.0 fall deduction for a total of +2.0 for the element.

If the jump is downgraded and you fall, too, you end up with pretty close to nothing for your effort. For instance if your triple Lutz is downgraded to a double and then you can't hold the landing you get 1.9 (base value for a double Lutz), then -1.0 GOE (this is -3 prorated for the particular element), then -1 for the fall, and you end up with a negative 0.1.

R.D. · Oct 19, 2006

ok, so in that case I suppose it depends. I wonder how that was treated in the 6.0 system. Anyway, thanks for the responses.

I've heard constant reference to the "Zayak Rule". I think I have an idea but what exactly is it in plain terms?

SeaniBu · Oct 19, 2006

Red Dog said:
I've heard constant reference to the "Zayak Rule". I think I have an idea but what exactly is it in plain terms?

No triple or quad jump may be attempted more than twice.

A rule that does not allow skaters to repeat the same triple or quad jumps in their free skate. Skaters are allowed to repeat only a triple or a quad jump, only if the attempt - at each repeated jump - is a jump combo or in a sequence.

Elaine Zayak, was occasionally including four triple toe loops in her routines, hence the name.

For more in depth - FOI to the rescue.
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/faq/rules.shtml#Q8

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

To add a little detail to Seanibu's post, the Zayak rule was named after Elaine Zayak, who could do a triple toe loop so well that she put a gang of them in her program, one after another, but no other triple jumps. Since this gave her way more total triple jumps than anyone else could do, the judges were in a quandary. Did Zayak deserve to win because she did more triples than anyone else, or should they let someone else win who wasn’t nearly as athletic but presented a more balanced program with a greater variety of elements?

So they came up with “Zayak rules” that limit the number of times you can repeat the same jump. There have been different variations, but the rule now is:

1. Only two different jumps can be repeated in your program.

2. If you do the same jump twice, one of the two times must be in a combination or sequence.

3. You cannot repeat any jump more than twice.

So, for instance, if your first four jumping passes are 3Lz, 3L+2T, 3F, 3F+2Lo, now you are “Zayaked out.” You have repeated two triple jumps, the Lutz and the flip, so you cannot do any more of these jumps and you cannot repeat any other jump.

So now you have to go something like 3S, 3Lo, 3T for your last three jumping passes.

BTW, if you don’t have a triple Axel but do want to do a triple-triple (ladies) it becomes kind of a problem.

Let’s say you do 3Lz+3T, 3Lz, 3F+3T. Now you are in trouble. You have repeated two triple jumps, the Lutz and the toe, so you cannot do any more repeats. So now you have to do something like 3S+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A and you still have one jumping pass to go.

SeaniBu · Oct 19, 2006

Mathman said:
Let’s say you do 3Lz+3T, 3Lz, 3F+3T. Now you are in trouble. You have repeated two triple jumps, the Lutz and the toe, so you cannot do any more repeats. So now you have to do something like 3S+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A and you still have one jumping pass to go.

I was under the impression that if they were part of a combo or sequence this would overt the violation?????

Fredegunda · Oct 19, 2006

OK, I am not up on COP and I can't answer the original question - and I don't really mean to hijack the thread but the discussion about the Zayak rule made me wonder: is there a Biellmann rule too?

Also, how is popping a jump different than doing a single jump?

Thanks a lot

SeaniBu · Oct 19, 2006

Fredegunda said:
: is there a Biellmann rule too?

Also, how is popping a jump different than doing a single jump?

Thanks a lot

I don't think so, haven't heard. But maybe there should be? It might fall in the number of trans in a spin or something though??

Yes, a pop is a half rotation at best. I think???

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

Ps. BTW, quads and triples of the same type of jump count as two different jumps. This gives you a big advantage if you have a quad (men). Let's say you have these elements planned.

3T+3T
3A
3A+2Lo
3Lz+2T
3F
3Lo
3S

You have repeated the 3T and the 3A and all you can do now is a 2A for your last jumping pass.

But if you change that first 3T to a 4T, now you can do 3Lz as your eighth pass.

SeaniBu · Oct 19, 2006

Mathman said:
But if you change that first 3T to a 4T, now you can do 3Lz as your eighth pass.

Are you married to Lori N? :laugh:

No wonder Miki keeps trying.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

SeaniBu said:
I was under the impression that if they were part of a combo or sequence this would overt the violation?????

I think it goes like this. If they are not part of a sequence or combo, then you can't repeat anything at all.

But you can repeat up to two jumps (but no more than two in any case) if one of the repitionons is in a combo or sequence.

So you can't do

3Lz
3Lz

at all, period.

But you can do 3Lz, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3F+2T. You have repeated your maximum of two different jumps, the Lutz and the flip. You cannot do another Lz or another flip period, and you cannot do two of any other jump, whether in combination or not.

I think that's right. (?)

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

SeaniBu said:
Are you married to Lori N?

No, but she is my all-time fave in the skating business. :love:

It just killed me when she and Michelle parted ways.

No wonder Miki keeps trying.

And no wonder that Mao Asada loves the triple Axel. The same principle of the quad for men applies to the triple Axel for ladies. Mao does not seem to trust her toe loop or Salchow, but she can go

3A
3A+2Lo
3Lz
3Lz+2Lo
3F
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo
2A

She repeated the Axel and the Lutz, the two highest jumps, and she did a 6 triple program, using only four different jumps.

MKFSfan · Oct 19, 2006

I thought under COP a skater only has 7 jumping passes, one of which must be an axle type jump??? Which is why unless a skater has a 3axle, 3/3, 2axle/3 or a sequence, they cannot have a 7 triple program. :scratch:

SeaniBu · Oct 19, 2006

Great insight.:agree:

I think I asked this {below} in the wrong spot so I just moved it - more on par with this discussion.

"Is the max points scheduled in a prog. defined by the number of elements in a routine or governed by a max number allowable?

IOW, is say 34 max allowed or is it just naturally defined by the elements allowed?

My next step is 1319, I was in there but thought I would ask before I have to reread the whole thing. :laugh:

"

Mathman said:
No, but she is my all-time fave in the skating business. It just killed me when she and Michelle parted ways.

Sorry I complained about her in the music editing capabilities for Fumie's SP - it was more that I was surprised than disappointed.

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

Fredegunda said:
OK, I am not up on COP and I can't answer the original question - and I don't really mean to hijack the thread but the discussion about the Zayak rule made me wonder: Is there a Biellmann rule too?

There is sort of a Biellmann rule for spins, new this year. It was put in after there were so many complaints about all the Biellmanns last season.

"Biellmann positions count as a feature that can increase the Level (of difficulty) only in one spin in the Short Program and in two in the Free Skating."

So in other words, although the rules do not forbid you from doing as many Biellmannn positions as you like, you don't get any CoP credit for them after your allotment of one time in the SP and twice in the LP.

Sort of like, in a jump sequence you can do as many jumps as you like, but only two count.

I don't think there are any restrictions on Biellmann and catch-foot positions for spirals, though.

R.D. · Oct 19, 2006

Thanks MM and SB. It's people like you that make GS such a good place to learn these kinds of things. :agree:

chuckm · Oct 19, 2006

Jeffrey Buttle almost always netted 5 points for falling on the quad. But a popped jump gives you 0 points, and can mess up your program completely if you try to repreat the jump.

So---if you're going to fall on a jump, make sure it is worth a lot of points!

R.D. · Oct 19, 2006

That leads to another situation: whether it's worth it to go for a harder jump (such as a 3A over a 2A) and risk falling rather than "playing it safe" with a 2A. If an attempt on the 3A is failed, (assuming the 3A is fully rotated), is it worth the same or less than a good 2A?

Mathman · Oct 19, 2006

A triple Axel with a fall is worth 7.5 - 3.0 - 1.0 = 3.5 points.

A double Axel (assuming 0 GOE) is worth 3.3 points.

Cop question: What's worse, "popping" a jump or falling on a jump?

R.D.

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