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Thread: The Cheating (?) Edge Jumps

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The Cheating (?) Edge Jumps

    Some of us have been discussing this topic on another non relevant thread. So I'm placing it here to see what we can come up with.

    It just seems to me that the third jump (usually a loop jump, although sometimes a toe loop) is badly executed on the ice takeoff and the landing.

    If I am correct in reading posters claims that actual 'air' turns are not important in edge jumps then I would like some comments (factual, if possible) on the following:

    Apparently a loop jump is allowed to have a 1/2 turn on-ice preparation before take-off.

    That same loop jump is allowed a 1/4 less in-air short of landing.

    The total for the in-air rotations of the loop jump would be a 1/4 turn for a single loop jump (I've seen that in Juveniles); and for senior: a 1-1/4 turn for a double loop jump and 2-1/4 turn for a triple. That to me sounds like, 75% of the in-air rotations are not necessary.

    Does anyone have factual information on this? I don't mind opinions. I certainly have my own but I do go by the Rules even if grudgingly.

    In non combo jumps most top skaters fall well within this range of "cheat?" but that 3rd jump in the combo gets to me.

    Joe

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Joe, we've had a pretty lengthy discussion of this in that thread but i just want to clarify some of your points below to avoid confusion...if i misinterpret what you mean please jump 9no pun intended!) in and say....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Some of us have been discussing this topic on another non relevant thread. So I'm placing it here to see what we can come up with.

    It just seems to me that the third jump (usually a loop jump, although sometimes a toe loop) is badly executed on the ice takeoff and the landing.

    If I am correct in reading posters claims that actual 'air' turns are not important in edge jumps then I would like some comments (factual, if possible) on the following:
    Technically on the loop the body does complete the air rotation, its only the blade that does not. You have to keep the body check all the way through the take off, if you release the body to pre-rotate as the blade does then your jump and rotation are killed and you go nowhere. So i think when you write "air turns" you mean of the bald not the rest of the skater from hips up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    That same loop jump is allowed a 1/4 less in-air short of landing.
    Joe i don't understand what you mean here - are you saying that the loop is allowed a to be a quarter short in the landing?? If you are, then i don't think that is the case at all. An underrotated jump is exactly that. Under the current rules - an underotation on the landing of the jump of less than 90 degrees is penalised in the GOE but is not downgraded. If the landing is short any more than 90 degrees then it is downgraded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    The total for the in-air rotations of the loop jump would be a 1/4 turn for a single loop jump (I've seen that in Juveniles); and for senior: a 1-1/4 turn for a double loop jump and 2-1/4 turn for a triple. That to me sounds like, 75% of the in-air rotations are not necessary.
    I disagree with this completely - the landing of the loop should be clean. It is my understanding from many coaches and even written literature in the form of John Misha Petkevich Book on teaching figure skating that it is acceptable technique on the loop to have the first 90-180 degrees of teh jump cmopleted on the ice. he teaches both loop and salchow as "half rotation jumps". but any more than 180 degrees is a cheat and completing 3/4 of the rotation on the ice is not acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Does anyone have factual information on this? I don't mind opinions. I certainly have my own but I do go by the Rules even if grudgingly.

    In non combo jumps most top skaters fall well within this range of "cheat?" but that 3rd jump in the combo gets to me.

    Joe
    Again, i think the only true "factual" thing i can point to is Petkevich's book, but that is the word of one coach and therefore not gospel. Some of the stuff i've said is from teh COP, the rest is pretty much my opinion and some fot eh thoughts and insights other skaters and my own coach have given me in learning the single salchow and loop.

    Ant

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Apparently a loop jump is allowed to have a 1/2 turn on-ice preparation before take-off.
    Sorry to ask a question of a question, but isn't is supposed to have 1/2 turn before push?

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I disagree with this completely - the landing of the loop should be clean. It is my understanding from many coaches and even written literature in the form of John Misha Petkevich Book on teaching figure skating that it is acceptable technique on the loop to have the first 90-180 degrees of teh jump cmopleted on the ice. he teaches both loop and salchow as "half rotation jumps". but any more than 180 degrees is a cheat and completing 3/4 of the rotation on the ice is not acceptable.
    This seems to be how the jumps have been judged in the past. A salchow or loop only needs to be 2.5 revolutions in the air for people to give it credit. I generally don't agree and I think it's why I find the salchow and loop to be the hardest jumps -- you only get one leg to jump with as opposed to the Toeloop/Flip/Lutz, so it's simply less lifting power if you want the complete rotations. It's actually easier for me to do a double salchow off a half-loop from some other jump and executing a solo double loop is just as difficult to me as doing it off another jump.

    Kristi Yamaguchi felt the same way. She only landed one or two Triple Salchows during her entire competitive career but was able to do a 3Lutz/3Toe just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium View Post
    Kristi Yamaguchi felt the same way. She only landed one or two Triple Salchows during her entire competitive career but was able to do a 3Lutz/3Toe just fine.
    One explanation Scott Hamilton gave once was that she was very good at doing throw triple salchows when she was still doing pairs but that was throwing off her timing on the solo salchow. I have no idea if that's true or not. I remember she was generally stronger on toe jumps than edge jumps (her loop wasn't the most consistent either and she never did get the 3ax despite really, really trying for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium View Post
    This seems to be how the jumps have been judged in the past. A salchow or loop only needs to be 2.5 revolutions in the air for people to give it credit. I generally don't agree and I think it's why I find the salchow and loop to be the hardest jumps -- you only get one leg to jump with as opposed to the Toeloop/Flip/Lutz, so it's simply less lifting power if you want the complete rotations. It's actually easier for me to do a double salchow off a half-loop from some other jump and executing a solo double loop is just as difficult to me as doing it off another jump.
    So are you saying you do double salchows without any prerotation on the ice at all? How do you even rotate at all?

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    BTW, here is Sasha Cohen's take off from her 3Loop from 2005 Worlds. It was fully ratified.

    http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=4ggrc09

    And here is a very short clip of that loop in slow motion.

    http://download.yousendit.com/49FAD49D4D450952
    Last edited by brinababy87; 10-20-2006 at 03:53 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Please guys - I am not arguing my point of view as the definitive answer to the full rotations after 'push' off.

    I think it is written that when landing a jump one doesn't have to land it exactly after one full rotation and has the freedom to leave 1/4 turn on the ice. That pertains to all jumps, I believe.

    For the edge jumps I don't know how much freedom one has on the ice before take off. If it is written somewhere that 1/2 turn of on ice preparation before take off is within the rules of the edge jumps, then so be it.

    My point here is that a skater will have a maximum of 3/4 less than what the spirit of the jumps calls for. Is that ok with your opinions? (Of course, most top skaters take less than a 1/4 turn before take off and less than 1/4 on landing.}

    BTW, let's not talk about axels, if a skater takes preparation on ice time for the take off, that skater is in trouble.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Brinababy, thanks for the Sasha clip. Even in slow motion and even when I stop each frame I still can't tell exactly at what instant her foot leaves the ice. When she actually takes off her foot is rotating very rapidly right around 90 degrees, as best I can make out, so maybe it's 100 degrees when she actually gets in the air? Do you agree with this?

    Her landing is short only a little bit, as best I can tell.

    Very lovely jump, BTW. I'll give her a +2 GOE on that!

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think it is written that when landing a jump one doesn't have to land it exactly after one full rotation and has the freedom to leave 1/4 turn on the ice. That pertains to all jumps, I believe.
    Yes, but I think this is a little misleading. It does not mean that it is OK to come up 1/4 turn short on the landing. It just means that up to 1/4 turn the error is treated as not so terrible as to merit an automatic downgrading of the jump from a triple to a double.

    I think the skater is still expected to complete the rotation 100% on the landing, and if he/she doesn't, then the judges are supposed to take off something on GOE for the underrotation (but it still counts as a triple).

    I do agree, BTW, with your basic point, that when skaters do a three/two/two combo (or even a plain 3/2) ending with a 2-loop, it hardly looks like they rotate the last jump in the air at all. I always supposed that this was because by this time they have almost come to a complete stop, so they just have to muscle their way up the best way they can by the strength of their knee, like you would if you were doing a single rotation from a standing start on a mat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brinababy87 View Post
    So are you saying you do double salchows without any prerotation on the ice at all? How do you even rotate at all?
    No, you have to prerotate, but lots of people land where they started prerotating instead of the spot where they eventually left the ice. Which makes the end result be 2.5 revolutions in the air instead of 2.75 to 3 rotations.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium View Post
    No, you have to prerotate, but lots of people land where they started prerotating instead of the spot where they eventually left the ice. Which makes the end result be 2.5 revolutions in the air instead of 2.75 to 3 rotations.
    I don't quite understand this. If you prerotate 1/4 turn and then do three complete revolutions in the air from that point, don't you land sideways?

    In the Sasha clip, it looks to me like she prerotates her body about 90 degrees ahead of her blade. When she leaves the ice she is facing completely forward (180 degrees prerotation of the upper body), with slightly more than 90 degrees of prerotation of the blade on the ice. She actually does 2.5 rotations of the body in the air. (A tiny bit less because of the cheat on the landing).

    Is Sasha's jump OK?

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think it is written that when landing a jump one doesn't have to land it exactly after one full rotation and has the freedom to leave 1/4 turn on the ice. That pertains to all jumps, I believe.

    ...

    My point here is that a skater will have a maximum of 3/4 less than what the spirit of the jumps calls for. Is that ok with your opinions? (Of course, most top skaters take less than a 1/4 turn before take off and less than 1/4 on landing.}
    Joe

    I'm still confused by what you mean about it being written that you are allowed to cheat any jump landing by a quarter turn. Where is it written? If you mean the COP then i've already explained that you get -GOEs for a cheat that is anything from 1-90 degrees short on the landing. I guess it gives the skater "freedom" in as much as the jump won't be downgraded but they still won't get the full base marks for the jump because of the -GOEs.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Ant - I think Mathman answered that and I believe him to be correct on that. A skater is allowed to land any jump within the 1/4 limit so as not to get a downgrade, but I presume he will not get a good GoE score.

    Most top skaters, as I said, do not have these 'little cheats' in calling a 2-1/2 air turn as a Triple.

    BTW, I believe there is a difference between a 'curve' into the loop jump and an 'arc' into the loop jump, In an 'arc' one goes out from a point and then returns to that point for the jump. Much safer if one has natural rotation. The 'curve' goes continually away until the skater is comfortable in taking off. If the skater is not comfortable - disaster regardless if he has natural rotation.

    That's what made me think Zuranthium was correct in finding the 1/2 loop into a salchow easier and at the same time must be done quickly without taking a long curve on the ice before take off.

    No one cheats an axel take off!!!

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Is Sasha's jump OK?
    Yes, that was a very nice 3Loop...it looks like exactly 2.75 revolutions to me. She does land where she started pre-rotating but the prerotation was only a quarter turn, not a half turn, so it's totally acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't quite understand this. If you prerotate 1/4 turn and then do three complete revolutions in the air from that point, don't you land sideways?
    I'm not sure what you mean by sideways? 3 complete rotations (any number of complete rotations) is going to land you on the back of your blade no matter what point you started at for a non-axel jump because you have backwards momentum. That's why an Axel jump has an extra half-rotation...because you start from the front and one single rotation would land you on the front of the blade, which is not a good thing. Sometimes I only get 2 revolutions when doing a double axle and it's a very ugly landing that totally spirals you out of control unless you can quickly maintain the landing toepick and put your other foot down in time to simply stop all movement (which still is obviously not good).
    Last edited by Zuranthium; 10-21-2006 at 01:52 PM.

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