Of top men who will be odd one out for GP final?

slutskayafan21 · Nov 5, 2006

Although new names, or improving skaters, can unexpectedly factor into the mix
at any given time the most forseeable situation would be that the 6 spots at this years GP final will be taken up by 6 of the 7 guys-Lambiel, Takahashi, Sandhu, Oda, Lysacek, Weir, and Joubert. Who will end up being the odd guy out do you think, especialy considering the early season outcomes and points at the first event for 6 of these 7 points, and their remaining assignment(s)and the fields they face.

My take on it at this point is that Lambiel, Lysacek, Oda, and Joubert are pretty safe while Sandhu, Weir, and Takahashi are the 3 guys on the bubble for the final 2 spots.

Mathman · Nov 5, 2006

We haven't seen Sandhu yet this season, but Johnny needs to get it going.

dutchherder · Nov 5, 2006

Either Sandhu or Joubert

Zuranthium · Nov 5, 2006

Um, Sandhu. He sucks.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 5, 2006

Wasn't there a change in the number of entrants for the GP or was that just in JGP?

If Lambiel was as bad as I have been reading (without seeing) then the judges will not hold him up twice, so I say Lambiel will be left out.

Joe

debdelilah · Nov 5, 2006

Joesitz said:
Wasn't there a change in the number of entrants for the GP or was that just in JGP?

If Lambiel was as bad as I have been reading (without seeing) then the judges will not hold him up twice, so I say Lambiel will be left out.

Joe

Stephane's short program is up on youtube, and it was actually much better than what I was expecting; he sells the program as much as he always does, except the jumps are not there.
I wonder how he'd do if he stopped training the quad this year? He gets high levels on non-jump elements, and scored 146--very high--having touched down on one quad and fallen on another. He could always go back to the quad closer to 2010, but for now, maybe leaving it out could help him last till Vancouver.

chuckm · Nov 5, 2006

There is so much hype about the GP final. In the grand scheme of things, the GPF doesn't matter a whit. What counts is what the men (and all the competitors) bring to Worlds, not how they skate in the early season.

None of the 2005 Ladies GPF medalwinners won gold at the major championships (Worlds / Olympics / Junior Worlds / 4CC). The Mens and Ladies OGM winners and the Ladies World Champion didn't even MAKE the 2005 GPF.

Emanuel Sandhu makes the GPF year after year and even won it once, but he's never set foot on a World podium.

Let's not overemphasize the importance of this event.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 5, 2006

chuckm said:
There is so much hype about the GP final. In the grand scheme of things, the GPF doesn't matter a whit. What counts is what the men (and all the competitors) bring to Worlds, not how they skate in the early season.

None of the 2005 Ladies GPF medalwinners won gold at the major championships (Worlds / Olympics / Junior Worlds / 4CC). The Mens and Ladies OGM winners and the Ladies World Champion didn't even MAKE the 2005 GPF.

Emanuel Sandhu makes the GPF year after year and even won it once, but he's never set foot on a World podium.

Let's not overemphasize the importance of this event.

I agree with you but lets face it, in the first 3 months of the season what else is there to be interested in but the road the GP final? Until events like the big country Nationals, Europeans, maybe Four Continents, and Worlds, that as well as the junior GP circuit for those who are interested, are the only real seasons for a skating fan to follow.

What is more worth following as a figure skating fan at this point of the year?

Also for some skaters a win or a medal at the GP final can be a career highlight. Malinina's win at the 99 GP final was by far her career highlight and something she probably talks about to this day, Savoie's medal at the 2001 GP final was his career highlight, Bourne/Kraatz's 2 GP final wins in Canada other then their late-career World title was their career high points.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 5, 2006

debdelilah said:
Stephane's short program is up on youtube, and it was actually much better than what I was expecting; he sells the program as much as he always does, except the jumps are not there.
I wonder how he'd do if he stopped training the quad this year? He gets high levels on non-jump elements, and scored 146--very high--having touched down on one quad and fallen on another. He could always go back to the quad closer to 2010, but for now, maybe leaving it out could help him last till Vancouver.

The reason I dont think you would ever seen Stephane considering taking out the quad is he does not have even a remotedly solid triple axel. He almost half expects to do not even end up rotating it, and often when he does he misses it.
So that is why the quad is paramount for him, partialy to compensate for almost having no triple axel up to now. If he had a more solid triple axel he might leave out the quad for parts of the season to rest his body, but he does not have this.

DivaDes · Nov 5, 2006

chuckm said:
There is so much hype about the GP final. In the grand scheme of things, the GPF doesn't matter a whit. What counts is what the men (and all the competitors) bring to Worlds, not how they skate in the early season.

None of the 2005 Ladies GPF medalwinners won gold at the major championships (Worlds / Olympics / Junior Worlds / 4CC). The Mens and Ladies OGM winners and the Ladies World Champion didn't even MAKE the 2005 GPF.

Emanuel Sandhu makes the GPF year after year and even won it once, but he's never set foot on a World podium.

Let's not overemphasize the importance of this event.

The GPF in itself is not that important competition in regard to setting a skater up for World, however this year making the final is much more important. This is the first year of the new payout for the top 3 in the world standing. If a skater make the Final even if they get last they will accumulate more points than a skater who got first at a single Grand Prix event. First place in a Grand Prix event gives a skater 400 points and getting 6th (last place) in the Final gives a skater 550. Competition wise the GPF may not effect what happens in March at the Worlds but making the final will most likely affect who is on to pof the world standing at the end of the year.

~D

chuckm · Nov 5, 2006

DivaDes said:
The GPF in itself is not that important competition in regard to setting a skater up for World, however this year making the final is much more important. This is the first year of the new payout for the top 3 in the world standing. If a skater make the Final even if they get last they will accumulate more points than a skater who got first at a single Grand Prix event. First place in a Grand Prix event gives a skater 400 points and getting 6th (last place) in the Final gives a skater 550. Competition wise the GPF may not effect what happens in March at the Worlds but making the final will most likely affect who is on to pof the world standing at the end of the year.

~D

I guess this would be important to skaters who don't get much funding from their federations, but the skaters who win World medals also get a big piece of change, and lots of endorsements and other opportunities to make money (shows, tours, etc.) as well.

I think ANY skater would rather be a World medalist and collect money that way, than finish off the World podium and get $ from being high on the World ranking list. Skaters aren't like racehorses whose owners boast the money their horses have earned in their careers.

You'd better believe that World medals and titles are far more important on a skater's resume when it comes to post-eligible skating opportunities.

chuckm · Nov 5, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
I agree with you but lets face it, in the first 3 months of the season what else is there to be interested in but the road the GP final? Until events like the big country Nationals, Europeans, maybe Four Continents, and Worlds, that as well as the junior GP circuit for those who are interested, are the only real seasons for a skating fan to follow.

What is more worth following as a figure skating fan at this point of the year?

I agree with this. FANS like the GP because it is skating, and it is on TV. Skaters who don't have the big titles like the GP because it is their chance to earn medals they wouldn't otherwise get. But to many top skaters, it is nothing more than a chance to try out their new programs and assess what they have to do downstream to be more competitive.

But the GP doesn't mean much in terms of who is top dog and who is not.

debdelilah · Nov 5, 2006

slutskayafan21 said:
So that is why the quad is paramount for him, partialy to compensate for almost having no triple axel up to now. If he had a more solid triple axel he might leave out the quad for parts of the season to rest his body, but he does not have this.

I hope the season goes well for him, but thinking a couple years down the road, it may work out better for him in the long run if he doesn't go all out trying to win at all costs this year. He only did a double axel, and no clean quad, and still got respectable scores...which he could probably improve if he spent more time on his spins, etc. I just don't see how he can continue trying to land quads the way he does, and not injure himself to the point of retirement.
If this season does not go well for him, it may be better in the long run--more time to rest and then train in the offseason, and less pressure next year.

Quads seem like a curse hidden in a blessing, to me. They take a long time to train--and then people seem to have trouble with other jumps after training them--and injuries pop up, and training time is lost, and everything goes south from there.

Not to mention, with them being so difficult, underrotation and falling are both likely, so an underrotated quad fall will be scored like a triple fall--what elite skater wants to have scores reflect falling on a triple toe? Especially in the short program, where it messes up the combination?

I would like to see what Stephane could do with his programs if he wasn't worrying about jump scores as much. I think it would be incredible.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 5, 2006

chuckm said:
There is so much hype about the GP final. In the grand scheme of things, the GPF doesn't matter a whit. What counts is what the men (and all the competitors) bring to Worlds, not how they skate in the early season.

Let's not overemphasize the importance of this event.

I could not agree with you more, but you have to understand the posters and their way of thinking. For example, if a skater misses a quad, they think he no longer has a quad. They tend to base everything on the very last competition they have seen.

In the last analysis, it's their body of work that counts, and yes, that counts mostly at the Worlds.

Joe

debdelilah · Nov 5, 2006

Joesitz said:
I could not agree with you more, but you have to understand the posters and their way of thinking. For example, if a skater misses a quad, they think he no longer has a quad.

Joe

I know Stephane still has a quad, and I think he could be successful this year with it. If he wanted to train with the same intensity he did last year, and take cortisone shots to cover pain, etc, he would win Worlds again more than likely.
I was thinking more along the lines of him lasting to compete in Vancouver.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 5, 2006

debdelilah said:
I know Stephane still has a quad, and I think he could be successful this year with it. If he wanted to train with the same intensity he did last year, and take cortisone shots to cover pain, etc, he would win Worlds again more than likely.
I was thinking more along the lines of him lasting to compete in Vancouver.

Having had both-knee-surgeries myself, I am very skeptical about Stephane lasting till Vancouver. I've never met anyone who had joint surgery to say they are 100 per cent again. It has to be his left knee because that's the takeoff for the 3A.

Joe

chuckm · Nov 5, 2006

If Lambiel has no quad and no 3A, he will not be top dog any more. He has to do the quad in order to stay competitive. But the constant pounding to his body from practicing the 3A and the quad aren't helping his vulnerable knees.

I agree with joesitz: I would be surprised if Lambiel lasted until 2010.

debdelilah · Nov 5, 2006

But if he wants to win the Olympics, couldn't he make a conscious decision that it isn't as important to win Worlds every year between now and then? He could get good scores--not winning scores, but good scores with improvements in non-jump areas, and stick around, and get a rest from training the harder jumps for awhile.

I don't see why he should be expected to win Worlds every year doing all these quads--people can see that he's been injured, but the expectations are still there. He doesn't necessarily have to be forced into premature retirement because of people's expectations--he could come in fourth at Worlds, train the quad only during the Olympic season when he needs it most, and possibly win.

The way it is now, it seems like when injury really has caught up with him, it will shock most people, and he'll be out of favor with public opinion. Plus, if he injures himself badly, he won't have many options to skate as a professional.

temperboy28 · Nov 5, 2006

chuckm said:
If Lambiel has no quad and no 3A, he will not be top dog any more. He has to do the quad in order to stay competitive.

Alot of his close competitors do not have a quad so he would have all the same jumps they have if he took out the quad. I think he could just as well as he does now by taking out the quad and just doing all the triples, resting his knees, and focusing more on maximizing his spin levels, perfecting the program and footwork and other jumps even more. Weir, Lysacek, Buttle, Takahashi, and Oda dont do quads much or ever, he can score as high as them in any other areas. Joubert is the only one and he fails in competition mostly in the last 2 years anyway. So I think he can win without the quad against the current field. None of them do quads either except the unpredictable Joubert.

mylastduchess · Nov 5, 2006

temperboy28 said:
Alot of his close competitors do not have a quad so he would have all the same jumps they have if he took out the quad. I think he could just as well as he does now by taking out the quad and just doing all the triples, resting his knees, and focusing more on maximizing his spin levels, perfecting the program and footwork and other jumps even more. Weir, Lysacek, Buttle, Takahashi, and Oda dont do quads much or ever, he can score as high as them in any other areas. Joubert is the only one and he fails in competition mostly in the last 2 years anyway. So I think he can win without the quad against the current field. None of them do quads either except the unpredictable Joubert.

Shandu has a quad... well sometimes. and a couple of other guys are capable of it!

Of top men who will be odd one out for GP final?

slutskayafan21

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Mathman

dutchherder

Zuranthium

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Joesitz (RIP)

debdelilah

chuckm

slutskayafan21

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slutskayafan21

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DivaDes

chuckm

chuckm

debdelilah

Joesitz (RIP)

debdelilah

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

debdelilah

temperboy28

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mylastduchess

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