Why I think Cohen deserved silver in Turin. | Golden Skate

Why I think Cohen deserved silver in Turin.

temperboy28

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
People still say today Cohen did not deserve silver in Turin. I think she did because:

-Slutskaya had the worst free skate I have ever seen from her in 2 years since she was really sick. Not only the 2 big mistakes. Ok without 1 of her 2 big mistakes she wins silver, without both she wins gold, but that is only because of Arakawa and Cohen making mistakes that day. The overall quality of her performance and elements was the worst it has been in 2 years. Her jumps she landed cleanly were nothing like they usually are, high on toepick on landings, leaning, laboured launching them, no flow out. Normaly she would outscore somebody by Cohen alot in GOE on jumps yet her GOE total on the jumps she did cleanly was only +0.57 I think and that is the same as Cohen had if you dont count her triple-triple sequence as a clean jump. That shows how much her jumps were off. Her spins were much below her best too, her GOE on spins were lower then usual, and I think some of her levels might have been too then she had in other performances. Her last footwork sequence was showing her being tired and not done properly at all, it was only graded a level 2 so she lost points in value, and the GOE was lower then it would usual for her too. Then PCS scores, her PCS would have been lower since she did not have her usual energy or fire, she did not sell the program or interpret the music as well since she was nervous, so of course her PCS would be lower then both her usual, and with a subpar performance level on her own part lower then beautiful skaters like Arakawa and Cohen.


-Suguri is a second tier skater. I dont mean that as an insult since she is still an extremely good and accomplished skater. However she is a big level behind the other big girls-Slutskaya, Cohen, Kwan, young hotshots, etc...to begin with and always has been. That means she has no chance to beat the big guns when they hit their programs, and if they make big mistakes she only has a shot to beat them if she hits her own programs not certain she will even in thise case though. There is no part of her skating you say is amazing-good jumps, good spins, good musicality, good polish, good basic skating, nothing special though, just everything good kind of. You look at her competitive history and you will see what I mean, the judges agree on that too. She also was not totally clean in Turin, she doubled a jump, and had 1 or 2 other landings that may not have been clean. She also did not have the spin levels high enough, her spins looked like they were harder at Worlds. In the long at Worlds she scored 5 points higher with just as much mistake total so I assume she upgraded some of her non-jump elements for Worlds, atleast in the long program. Well she should have done this before Turin in both short and long, a second tier skater needs to squeeze every point they get to take on the bigger guns.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think most people here thought she did deserve the Silver. You must have this mixed up with another board.

It was the Worlds which many thought Sokolova should have been third. BTW, I presume you are a big fan, do you have any inside information that Sasha is training for the US Nationals?

Joe
 

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
I think most people here thought she did deserve the Silver. You must have this mixed up with another board.

It was the Worlds which many thought Sokolova should have been third. BTW, I presume you are a big fan, do you have any inside information that Sasha is training for the US Nationals?

Joe

That's also my thought! She deserved the silver in Torino, but not the bronze in Calgary!
 

Lanie

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
BTW, I presume you are a big fan, do you have any inside information that Sasha is training for the US Nationals?

Joe

I do, kind of. :)

A friend of mine who skates at Aliso has seen Sasha around quite a bit, training seriously--not just messing around. So it could be for Nationals, it could be for the cheesefest in DEcember, but she's still going to the rink on a regular basis post-Campbells.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Thanks for that info Lanie.:agree:

And I agree, she did. I don't like to think it from my heart, and I maybe one of the ones temperboy28 is referring to having said such a thing - comment anyway. All the discussion around the topic has helped me come to terms with that. I don't like to "waffle" but I have to, but I still would place Fumie 3rd. Ira seamed to have a "Johnny face" on for the LP - for what ever reason Illness etc, nothing like the Ira of the 05 season. As for you stance on Fumie, to each their own, and I can't argue with that either. I do think she has something that none of the ladies have, but there seems to only be few that feel the same.

She'll be "my main feature" for a long time to come :love: I still think JR's LP was a fluke at SCanada, well see. ?? Maybe she is stepping up the pace too - and Fumie either needs to find something new to add for more of a guarantee of placement - Kinda like Phil Mickelson in golf.

But I don't really think 2nd tier is the right example. That I would barely even say about Kiira or Taylor. Fumie is in the top 20 in the world no doubt, under the top 20 is where I would start using a term like that but it is just a semantics issue and I get the drift of the comment and agree.
 
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riverflows

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Fumie does not have a 'wow factor' like some of the other lady skaters, but she is hardly second tier. She's made the World podium 3 times and that's more than a lot of ladies can say.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Fumie does not have a 'wow factor' like some of the other lady skaters, but she is hardly second tier. She's made the World podium 3 times and that's more than a lot of ladies can say.
More then particularly any Japanese lady AAMOF.

I guess this is just a semantics differentiation in perception, for me she has the "wow factor" more then any other current lady. :laugh: But yes, second tier is not really "proper." Yet understood.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Back to Sasha. Thanks Lanie. I'm not in Sasha's head so I can't say for sure that the daily practice is for Marshalls and Nats. I'm sure she will be at Marshalls because of contract and big bucks a la Michelle. I'd like to see her skate the Marshalls but I'm not sure about Nats. Somehow there was more news coming out of the Cohen camp which has disappeared since Worlds and just a little since Campbells. the cinema has taken over but how much?
Does she still do her thing with the Journal?

Joe
 

Zuranthium

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Sasha definitely deserved Silver, the real question is if Fumie deserved Bronze over Slutskaya. I'd have to say yes. Fumie's PCS scores should have been higher, especially in the short program.

EDIT: My typing is whacky sometimes.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Does she still do her thing with the Journal?
Last journal entry was October 12, before Campbell's.

http://www.sashacohen.com/journal.shtml

"Do you like the length of my hair?"

I hope Sasha does decide to do Nationals. Even if she is not at her competitive peak in January, she could still give Kimmie all she could handle.
Maybe if she entered just as a lark and didn't really care, her nerves wouldn't get the best of her and she'd do fine.
.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006

Thanks Math, I have them (still sweet though) and that is one of the best ever outfits:love: :love: :love: . For that I will get something for you.


BOT, even though Fumie was brought into the original topic, who knows of Sasha's latest plan. Like Joe was asking about her journal? is she sticking to the 2 year plan, or ??? Come on Lanie I :bow: at you feet for that tid bit.

BTW, I thought she - Sasha - was at SkateWorld? My dreams may play jokes on me though:laugh:
 
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slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
I thought Sasha's total score was a total gift. Her skating skill scores were much too high to begin with, she has nowhere near the skating skills of Arakawa, Suguri, or Slutskaya, even if her other PCS are good aside from her mistakes. Her mistakes which greatly disrupted the flow of the program should have docked her overall PCS scores more then they did. Her final footwork sequence was much overscored, it was good but nothing amazing and did not warrant almost 2 full points in GOE scores. She was just overscored in many ways IMHO and did not deserve the silver. Some think she deserved the silver, that is fine, but I will never have that opinion unless somebody says something to convince me. While I do appreciate some of the great qualities of her skating I have always found her a judges pet anyway, so her getting what I considered a gift did not surprise me, but again just my opinion. I would have had it Suguri-silver, Slutskaya or Cohen-bronze, Slutskaya or Cohen-4th. Irina was also a bit overscored, and Suguri was underscored.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Fumie does not have a 'wow factor' like some of the other lady skaters, but she is hardly second tier. She's made the World podium 3 times and that's more than a lot of ladies can say.


Well somebody like Kira Ivanova of Russia has an Olympic bronze and a World silver, which is probably about on par with a World silver at post-Olympic Worlds, a World bronze at post-Olympic Worlds, and 1 other World bronze. Claudia Leistner of Germany is a skater with 2 World silvers. Meno/Sand a U.S pair team won 2 World bronzes, and a World silver at a post-Olympic Worlds. I think these are examples of skaters that most refer to as second tier skaters as well so I can see Suguri referred to as that. Second tier is not an insult, you must be extremely good to be one of the best of the second tier group.

2 of Suguri's 3 World medals, including her highest medal-the silver last year, are at post-Olympic Worlds. I believe post-Olympic Worlds could be put into a seperate category from the other 3 Worlds in a given quadrennail as there are almost always absences, atleast post-88 Olympics.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Second tier is not an insult, you must be extremely good to be one of the best of the second tier group.

Who is first tier then? 4 skaters?

I don't want to be a troll so I am going to edit this post to add. - does that really change it ???

So if Sasha is consistently over scored then who is really giving the wrong score, the "armchair" or the judges that have undergone changes (as well as different Judges) and still score her that way? And still can't see how she is over scored. She has a wonderful presents and as many times as I hear things like she skates flat, I witness for myself she doesn't. I think it is a opinion that is fine to have, but still have a hard time understanding how people can overlook something so obvious as her talent.

Don't know if this is OT but it brings to mind if I am being unbiased, well...? Fumie I am smitten by (although not seen live) Ira I am star struck, but Sasha...I really don't think I'm bias. She's pretty, she has tenacity, but bias, not her. I think she is a superb skater that I feel even underestimated for a long time because of her "falling" issue. She fights with a smile and hangs tough. Even though there are those who say she should go and had her chance, did they dare say that about MK?

Sasha obviously has Presentation skills, she obviously has skill, I have to trust the committee more then the opinions.

ON topic, her SP was great! Her LP was recovery much better than ZZ, with a smile and spark on the elements. And as other topic on the forum is pointing out, she is a VERY quite skater (blade noise).

And It does amaze me too that we are still talking about this, but is that a problem?
 
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dancindiva03

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I still disagree, Sasha did not deserve silver. I don't think she deserved a medal at all. She is so consistantly overmarked, its ridiculous.
 

mkdream

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
I feel that Sasha deserved silver and Fumie the bronze. I have always thought that Irina was overrated. Her skates were all speed and biellmans. Also, I definitely would not call Fumie a second tier skater. Sokolova would be a second tier skater IMO.
 

Fossi

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I would agree that Sasha's silver was a gift. Didn't Sasha think so too? I would've had her in 4th and Fumie in 2nd, with Irina in 3rd.
You know, the "real" rivalry all along has been Sasha and Fumie. I never did understand the Sasha vs. Kwan thing. It was Fumie that surprised everyone more than once at Worlds and got a medal while Cohen faltered. I would hardly call Fumie 2nd tier, and I doubt Sasha would either considering that Fumie has beaten her at Worlds when it counts.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Who is first tier then? 4 skaters?

Tiers are subjective anyway, I dont usually put skaters in tiers neccessarily, but my boyfriend likes to so his thread had Fumie in a 2nd tier. I was only saying I could see her being considered as a 2nd tier skater if she was in a tier, since skaters like Ivanova, Meno/Sand, and Leistner as examples off the top of my head would be regarded as that and her accomplishments are very competitive with theirs.


So if Sasha is consistently over scored then who is really giving the wrong score, the "armchair" or the judges that have undergone changes (as well as different Judges) and still score her that way? And still can't see how she is over scored.

If you dont find her overscored that is fine. I do find her overscored, we will have to agree to disagree.

She has a wonderful presents and as many times as I hear things like she skates flat, I witness for myself she doesn't.

Her edges are flat and her basic skating is clearly below some of her chief competitors. That is why I find her skating skills scores much too high, but judges tend to score all 5 PC categories as 1, so if you are excellent at 1, less excellent at the other, they score you excellent in each anyway.


I think it is a opinion that is fine to have, but still have a hard time understanding how people can overlook something so obvious as her talent.

I did not say she was not talented. I said she was overscored in some areas, that is not saying she has no talent. I dont think she is some goddess who is so amazing in every area she deserves to win medals with multi disruptive falls over cleaner performances from skaters close to top level as well. The judges often show they do. Some fans or analysts agree, some dont, Sasha is always a debate when it comes to judging it seems.


Don't know if this is OT but it brings to mind if I am being unbiased, well...? Fumie I am smitten by (although not seen live) Ira I am star struck, but Sasha...I really don't think I'm bias. She's pretty, she has tenacity, but bias, not her. I think she is a superb skater that I feel even underestimated for a long time because of her "falling" issue. She fights with a smile and hangs tough. Even though there are those who say she should go and had her chance, did they dare say that about MK?

I dont think she is underestimated. She gets alot of hype for a skater with 0 World/Olympic Gold medals, and whose only GP final win and U.S National win were without Kwan in the field. Alot of hype for a skater who has arguably thrown away chances to win almost every U.S Nationals, Worlds, and Olympics since 2002 yet is talked about by many as if she were a proven champion, rather then the chronic underachiever she really is.


Sasha obviously has Presentation skills, she obviously has skill, I have to trust the committee more then the opinions.

Fine, I also trust that people like Brian Boitano and Elvis Stojko who both said they would not have given her the silver that night for sure have opinions worth trusting as well.


ON topic, her SP was great! Her LP was recovery much better than ZZ, with a smile and spark on the elements. And as other topic on the forum is pointing out, she is a VERY quite skater (blade noise).

Sasha a quiet skater with little blade noise? :rofl: Ummm ok. I guess the judges ridiculously generous skating skills scores they award Sasha has everyone fooled in that aspect of her skating.
 
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