Mira Leung and Her New Coach

This is going to sound unduly harsh on Joannie because i do love her skating and don't mean to bash her but the point surely is...Joannie looks like a million dollars but how exactly has that helped her win titles...where are her titles proving she's a good skater????

Make up and outfits are one thing (a thing that Joannie does very very well) but at the end of the day its the skating that matters - both for Joannie and for Mira. I would think the most pressing matter for both of them at teh moment is getting tehir skating working well and Mira's jump technique as well as presentation is something i'm more concerned about right now.

Ant

A more polished appearance might actually help her skating overall. A baseball player, many years ago, can't remember who, was known for his natty appearance on the field (always clean-shaven, shirt tucked in, etc, etc) while many of his teammates, and indeed other players on other teams, always showed up looking like they just rolled off the loading dock. When asked about his appearance relative to his teammates, he said, "Well, I've always believed that if you look sloppy, you play sloppy." I think many of us here would be able to relate to that -- don't you feel much more professional and efficient, etc, etc, if you come to work in something a little nicer than sweats and an old T-shirt??

JonnyCoop said:

A more polished appearance might actually help her skating overall. A baseball player, many years ago, can't remember who, was known for his natty appearance on the field (always clean-shaven, shirt tucked in, etc, etc) while many of his teammates, and indeed other players on other teams, always showed up looking like they just rolled off the loading dock. When asked about his appearance relative to his teammates, he said, "Well, I've always believed that if you look sloppy, you play sloppy." I think many of us here would be able to relate to that -- don't you feel much more professional and efficient, etc, etc, if you come to work in something a little nicer than sweats and an old T-shirt??

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I don't know - i think a change is as good as a rest. I hae to come to work in a suit from Mon to Thurs but on a friday (client meetings permitting) we have dress down day. I feel much more comfortable and relxed not being trused up in a suit and find that in being more relaxed i am more efficient even though its a friday. In other jobs i've had where we didn't get a dress down day i was more inclicned to take my foot off the accelerator on a friday because of the looming weekend.

To support your idea though, at law college when we did role plays of being in court of simulating client meetings we were told to come in a suit, beacuse apparently everyone found it easier to "perform" when they were in "costume" as it were.

One thing is the appearence of the your clothes/tights/skates but its another to tell someone they have to wear make up/remove hair in order to gain respect...that is something i take issue with and find sexist and patronising and against any principles of a free society.

I am always reminded of that handful of academic Islamic professors (female) who wrote an incredibly interesting article about how dressing in the burkha and generally covering upcan be empowering on the basis that you are no longer cruelly or harshly judged on the way you look. They talked about the concept of make up being the western woman's burka and their cover up/barrier to teh world and that being free of that western obsession with looks is a pretty empowering thing for a woman. And just so that i can make very clear- i do not believe that anyone shoul dbe forced into wearnig anything they do not want to, so i on't agree with women who are forced to wear the burkha by anyone unless they decide they want to of their own volition and neither to i agree that women should be forced to wear make up if they don't want to.

Ant

If Skate Canada doesn't want Mira representing Canada wearing dirty skates, and torn tights with underwear showing, and Mira doesn't want to look as neat and well-turned out as the other skaters, then maybe Mira shouldn't accept Skate Canada's funding.

Mira is NOT representing her own viewpoint on competition ice. She is representing Canada and should have to adhere to the rules or not compete for Canada.

chuckm said:

If Skate Canada doesn't want Mira representing Canada wearing dirty skates, and torn tights with underwear showing, and Mira doesn't want to look as neat and well-turned out as the other skaters, then maybe Mira shouldn't accept Skate Canada's funding.

Mira is NOT representing her own viewpoint on competition ice. She is representing Canada and should have to adhere to the rules or not compete for Canada.

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It would appear that Skate Canada does want Mira representing them full stop, since they haven't pulled her up on any of that stuff.

As far as i can tell no rules are being broken by wearing dirty skates, torn tights or showing your underwear (unless the tasteful costuming rule can be used against the pant showing ).

Ant

antmanb said:

No you misunderstood my outrage!!!

A particular pet peeve of mine is people enforcing their social norms about both gender and gender identity and sexuality!

Ant

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I'm not a person that enforce my social norms about gender, gender indentity and sexuality! Please don't accuse me of these things, because it isn't true!

antmanb said:

As far as i can tell no rules are being broken by wearing dirty skates, torn tights or showing your underwear (unless the tasteful costuming rule can be used against the pant showing ).
Ant

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OK! Let all the skaters wear dirty skates, torn tights and showing their underwear!

antmanb said:

It would appear that Skate Canada does want Mira representing them full stop, since they haven't pulled her up on any of that stuff.

As far as i can tell no rules are being broken by wearing dirty skates, torn tights or showing your underwear (unless the tasteful costuming rule can be used against the pant showing ).

Ant

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That is the problem as Skate Canada does give seminars on how to dress ( hair, makeup etc ) which Mira has attended.

The fact they give those seminars implies a standard of dress which is expected for competition.

In the real working world not following the standards could mean being fired.

It is clear that Mira is not following the advice Skate Canada has given her. She is not even trying to follow the advice. The only area where one might have an excuse is a lack of makeup ( and only then for allergy problems). If she looked neat sans makeup I don't even think there would be much of an issue. The real problem are the holey tights , the panties showing and the lack of an effort to either polish or cover up beaten up boots.

Skate Canada is sending a mixed message by holding seminars about dress and then not doing anything to force Mira to try to follow those standards when she is clearly not trying to follow the guidelines.

Mathman said:

Because it is the responsibility of the moderators to enforce the rules of the forum. One of these rules prohibits the bashing of skaters, which is defined in the guidelines to include excessive and persistent negative comments, true or not.

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If that's the case, then this whole thread should be trashed IMHO. This thread contains, on the whole, negative comments (though not hateful) comments on Mira. I mean, certainly not flattering comments.

I was just going to lurk on this thread, but I just can't help myself. I start out by stating I mean NO disrespect to anyone.

antmanb said:

I don't know - i think a change is as good as a rest. I hae to come to work in a suit from Mon to Thurs but on a friday (client meetings permitting) we have dress down day.

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Why is it that dress down day is client meeting permitting? I assume that it has to do with how you and your company are presenting yourself to your clients, suits are more professional than say jeans and a sweater?

I think this is the key point that many are trying to make about how Mira presented herself at Skate Canada.

antmanb said:

One thing is the appearence of the your clothes/tights/skates but its another to tell someone they have to wear make up/remove hair in order to gain respect...that is something i take issue with and find sexist and patronising and against any principles of a free society.

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To me, make up etc is not about respect gain or lost on the ice, but under all of those tv lights it's amazing how washed out people look and how much expression in the program is missed. A little concealer/foundation and mascara can go a long way.
Yu-Na Kim looked lovely and I don't think she was overdone or looked years beyond her age.

Many of the men wear make up be it in singles, pairs or dance... I just think that if they see why it's a necessary part of the costume, it should not be such a shocker as to why the ladies should be wearing it.

Again, I mean no disrepect to you specifically, your post had key points I wanted to touch on, and I don't know how to quote multiple posts.

ETA: clearly I don't know how to quote a single post either... sorry for how difficult my post is to read.

some people are allergic to make up... (I'm one of those people) quite frankly I'd rather look 'washed out' than deal with the rash that I normally end up with afterwards

CanuckSk8r - I was lurking also. I just wanted to say that I knew virtually
nothing about Mira but after reading this thread that is not true anymore. I will check you-tube to see if there are any videos of Mira.

CanuckSk8r said:

ETA: clearly I don't know how to quote a single post either... sorry for how difficult my post is to read.

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Go like this at the end of a quote: [/quote]

passion said:

If that's the case, then this whole thread should be trashed IMHO. This thread contains, on the whole, negative comments (though not hateful) comments on Mira. I mean, certainly not flattering comments.

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Gosh, when I started this thread I did not intend for this to become a bash Mira thread. I was just struck by the comments in the Ice Skating International report regarding the interaction (or lack thereof) between Mira and Christine McBeth. I think it was also interesting that during the ESPN broadcast, they only focused on Mira in the K&C area and did not show Christine.

I am not a Mira fan, but I don't want to bash her either. That being said, I just think it's a shock when a skater at this level of competition shows up with their underwear peeking out from their costume. Regarding make-up: Michelle Kwan got away with no make-up during her first two years on the scene. However, she was also improving by leaps and bounds. From what little I've seen of Mira, her stroking seems to be only slightly improved. However, her jumping technique is still bizarre. I think if Mira had better basic skating skills AND were consistent with all her jumps, perhaps we wouldn't be talking about her on-ice appearance. I also don't think we're telling Mira to have tons of make-up on - just a little can make a world of difference.

Another thing that struck me was the discussion regarding her boots. I can't recall if it's in this thread or if it was during the broadcast, but something was mentioned about her skating in old boots because she was either comfortable in them or had confidence skating in them. I kind of wonder if her reluctance in getting new boots is related to a problem with breaking in new boots in the past.

It was also mentioned that she shows up at the competition in her costume. I wonder if maybe she doesn't want to get dressed around others or if there was a past experience where she made it to the rink and her costume didn't. Again, I think the reason we are also so intrigued by this is because it is not the norm of other skaters or our experience. Personally, I would not put my costume on until I had to perform - lots of things could happen.

Anyhow, I hope that going back to Joanne will be a positive for her. However, if Cynthia Phaneuf is back and in great condition - Mira had better watch out....

Herm (sk8ngnutt)

Would a businessman would go to an important client meeting wearing low-slung pants that exposed the top of his underwear, dirty sneakers and holey socks? I certainly hope not. And no one in his or her right mind would go to an interview for an important job dressed so sloppoily.

Mira is practicing before the same judges who will judge her in competition, wearing ratty t-shirts, pants with holes and skates held together with duct tape. She competes in torn tights and dirty skates, with her underwear visible under her dress.

If Mira wants a successful career in figure skating, her appearance IS important. Judges decide placements, and placements mean a great deal when touring companies look for eligible skaters to cast their shows. In effect, Mira is 'auditioning' her way out of potential offers.

Having been to quite a few tours, I have to say I have never seen one where the cast members wear no makeup.

antmanb said:

The family may also be advised that giving the judges sexual favours will also result in increased marks for Mira, but again, if the family choose to not heed that advise and pimp their daughter out to the judges then the have no-one to blame but themselves.
Ant

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I hope this is just sarcasm. If anything, parents should worry about what a few bad-apple coaches might do to/with their children in that area.

antmanb said:

This is just ridiculous, make up isn't in the PCS mark, if the judges are swayed by it then that's a very sorry state of affairs and i despair of this sport even more. While i personally have no problem with girls wearing make up for skating, i can see how a strict family might feel about it, i might not agree with it but that is their choice to make.

Ant

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Judges notice all these things -- makup, skates, costumes, etc -- but it has very little impact on the marks given out. There are, however, some practical reasons for some makeup if the skater want to use it.

1. A pale skater can get washed out into the ice -- particularly if they wear a light pastel costume. For some skaters, makeup helps the skater stand out from the ice and keep the attention of the judge more focused on the skater than it might without it. If a skater lack "presence" on the ice it can affect the marks.
2. On TV, under arena lighting, most skaters get washed out. Makeup helps define their features and makes for better pictures, which affects public perception
3. Makeup helps some skaters feel more in character, and the more they feel in character the more confortable they feel performing.

However, if a skater sees no benefits, I can live with their choice not to.

antmanb said:

In my opinion its not MIra's lack of make up holding her back, its what she's doing on the ice and not jimproving her presentation.
Ant

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I mainly agree. But it is also a fact of life that the "image" a skater projects affects how their association views them, and thus the support (in all its forms) they get within their association.

It also affects how the public views them (witness this thread) which affects their salability in shows and in their post-eligible career.

Nevertheless, my views is that in some ways Mira's packaging does affect her presentation, and some minor improvements in packaging would help the overall artisic impression created by her programs. Remember, under IJS, the skater is supposed to be projecting a purpose to the audience. The packaging of the skater can effect how well the skater communicates that purpose to the audience.

gio said:

OK! Let all the skaters wear dirty skates, torn tights and showing their underwear!

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Let's not start that one just yet!! You never know how standards can slip over the course of time in that department. I was always under the impression that it was UNTHINKABLE for men to go out on the ice in competition in an unshaven state -- however -- was I the only one who noticed, in Torino, HOW MANY GUYS APPARENTLY FORGOT TO SHAVE THAT MORNING??? Including a few who are ordinarily quite dapper in that department.

Mira Leung

Without even considering Mira's appearance and just focusing on her skating, she may have the basics but what she doesn't have is style. She shows no musciality or interpretation in her program. She is a very dull skater at this point in her career.

I think if she wants to compete with the elite skaters she needs to improve her presentation.

Dizzy

well mira is now back with joanne so it is all good.

My understanding is Mira has been with Joanne for sometime now and her apperance and training habits have not changed much over the years. Sometimes coaches like to have talented students and maybe put up with parental interference in order to have a gifted student. Maybe a soild foundation for the skaters development are not layed out in the beggining. What can anyone do now? She is still young hope for the best everyone needs to repect each other Skater,Parent,Coach.