Surprise Surprise - Short Program Spoiler

Mathman · Nov 10, 2006

Still, in any sport, once the competition is over, that's pretty much it, referee's mistake or no. At Japanese nationals last year they declared Oda the winner, then discovered a scoring mistake and changed it to Takahashi. But I think the mistake was discovered right away and it was a simple error in the computer code, not anything involving the judges' marks.

In other sports, the umpire might call a pitch a ball instead of a strike, this might cause one team to win and another to lose, and the mistake might be obvious to everyone in the stands and confirmed in instant reply and in a later careful review of the tapes. Maybe the unpire will be sanctioned later for making a bad call. But the result stands anyway.

So figure skating is not the only sport where bad calls by the officials can ruin someone's day -- all sports are like that. (Not saying it's right.)

-------------------

Bebe is not too far behind to still win. One fall did her in. And Elena S. can still make the podium.

Sylvia · Nov 10, 2006

doug_log said:
Hughes [SP]...but absolutely NO footwork or connecting steps into her 3Lz...She didn't do a required element, so...is there a penalty? Her 3F-2T combo was alright. How does the NJS handle this?

As I understand the rules, the lack of connecting steps should result in negative GOE for that element -- I don't think this is considered to be an omission of a required element in the SP.

Ptichka · Nov 10, 2006

Sylvia said:
As I understand the rules, the lack of connecting steps should result in negative GOE for that element -- I don't think this is considered to be an omission of a required element in the SP.

I agree, but the rules to support doug's position. Here are the eight required elements for ladies' SP:

a) Double Axel Paulsen;
b) One triple jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements;
c) One jump combination consisting of a double jump and a triple jump or two triple jumps;
d) Flying spin;
e) Layback or sideways leaning spin;
f) Spin combination with only one change of foot and at least two changes of position (sit, camel, upright or any variation thereof);
g) Spiral sequence;
h) Step sequence (straight line, circular or serpentine).

This just gets us back to the question of whether doing something incorrectly gets a lower mark or doesn't count at all. It's essentially the same issue as whether or not judges should be giving marks for various failed jumps.

gio · Nov 10, 2006

Sylvia said:
As I understand the rules, the lack of connecting steps should result in negative GOE for that element -- I don't think this is considered to be an omission of a required element in the SP.

If you look at ISU Communication No. 1396 at page 6, where are the guidelines for judges in establishing GOE for errors in the SP, it is clearly stated that if a jump isn't preceded by steps or movements there is a compulsory -3 GOE.
So, it seems that the judges are continuing to completly ignore the rules and to favor some skaters. In any case we will see in the protocols if there was a -3 GOE, but I highly doubt it, because with a -3 GOE Emily won't be first.

Mathman · Nov 10, 2006

I am looking at Communication 1396 and (reserving the right to be wrong) I don't think the -3 GOE is completely mandatory. It says

"No steps or movements preceding the jumps, -3, -GOE." I think this means that you get -3 GOE for that feature of the element, but you are allowed to bring that up to -2 or -1 if other features of the jump are exceptional.

I believe that the code for the mandatoy -3 (see for example, falling on the first jump of a combo) is "-3 GOE."

Does anyone know for sure if I am reading that right?

It also says "steps/movements not immediately preceding the jump, -2 to -1 GOE."

So I think the intent of the rules is to give the judges some leeway in deciding whether giving a little wiggle before you set up for your jump is enough to maybe get only -2 instead of -3 GOE, etc.

Like Gio, I will be interested to see the protocols. I wonder if the judges will be in substantial agreement with each other, or if they will be all over the lot in interpreting this rule.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 10, 2006

And we all thought these Rules would be solid and avoid the pitfalls of the 6.o system.

nymkfan51 · Nov 10, 2006

Here are some links to COC SP's:

Emily Hughes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJeo6UoVnEA

Shen & Zhao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KabhK8XLbGg

Evan Lysacek:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=9E2FB4203C17E387

Yukari Nakano:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=74983F98782D6427

Mai Asada:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=B67E1DFC77EDBAFD

gio · Nov 10, 2006

Mathman said:
I think this means that you get
-3 GOE for that feature of the element, but you are allowed to bring that up to -2 or -1 if other features of the jump are exceptional. I believe that the code for the mandatoy -3 (see for example, falling on the first jump of a combo) is "-3 GOE."

So, if I did understand, if it is written -3GOE it means that a mandatory -3GOE should be given. If it is written -3, -GOE, it means that the judges first give a +GOE for the jump (example, a +1), the -3 means that than they detract 3 points from the 1+. The result is a -2GOE. Right? Because it isn't very clear what they mean with this. :scratch:

gio · Nov 10, 2006

nymkfan51 said:
Here are some links to COC SP's:
Emily Hughes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJeo6UoVnEA

Thank you!!
IMO, she didn't do any steps or movements before the jump. She just went normally into the Lutz with a telegraphed preparation. So this means also that the judges had to give her an additional -1GOE for the preparation.

gio · Nov 10, 2006

On the positive side, I have really to give her credit, because even if she is the sister of Sarah, she does a real Lutz. :clap:

Maybe the judges were so impressed that first they gave her a +3GOE and than a -3GOE, and the result was a 0GOE (base value).
I checked with the pause button and she doesn't seem to switch to the flat or inside edge. :agree:

I finished watching her whole program and I have to say that I really like her.

Mathman · Nov 10, 2006

gio said:
So, if I did understand, if it is written -3GOE it means that a mandatory -3GOE should be given. If it is written -3, -GOE, it means that the judges first give a +GOE for the jump (example, a +1), the -3 means that than they detract 3 points from the 1+. The result is a -2GOE. Right?

That is my best guess as to how to interpret these rules, but I am not completely sure whether I am right or not.

Joe said:
And we all thought these Rules would be solid and avoid the pitfalls of the 6.0 system.

I think realistically only the rules for the base values of the technical elements are solid. The GOEs and program coponent scores are still largely up the the judgement of the judges.

I personally do not have any quarrel with this. It is a judged sport. Judges judge. Judge #1 likes potatoes, judge #2 likes pa-tah-toes.

chuckm · Nov 10, 2006

I think Emily DID get a deduction for the lack of steps into the triple. At SA, she did 3Z1T, while at CoC she did 3F2T, yet her TES (and overall score) was lower at CoC.

Also, the landing on the 3Z was a little wild, as usual.

BTW, I wish Emily would ditch the ponytail for her "Carmen" program. A bun would look much better and be more in character.

gio · Nov 10, 2006

Did you notice from the Youtube vid that also Yukari Nakano didn't do any footwork into her triple flip. What happened? Why aren't they doing the footwork, if they know it is mandatory?

flying camel · Nov 10, 2006

Did you guys notice that both Emily & Evan skate last in the freeskate? I don't know if that is a good thing for Emily.

Spun Silver · Nov 10, 2006

I just watched Emily's and Yuri Nakano's SPs. Emily skated well, but Nakano and her program were stunning (despite the weird jumping style). I don't understand why she wasn't way ahead of Emily on PC scores alone.

Carmen does not suit Emily at all, IMO, and the choreography was undistinguished. She could have been skating to Frank Sinatra. (I was watching Oda, too.)

I'm puzzled about Nakano and her leg wrap. Everyone comments on it, yet it doesn't seem to cost her points. So why do people care? Something so egregious must be either right or wrong, and apparently it's right. (Right?)

chuckm · Nov 10, 2006

Yukari underrotated her lutz, and that's why she's not ahead of Emily.

II can see your point about "Carmen" not suiting Emily---Emily and Carmen are at opposite ends of the personality spectrum. Carmen is sultry, slow-moving, sinuous and brooding and Emily is wholesome, energetic, bouncy and joyful. She can't help smiling during this SP, and that is not Carmen.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 10, 2006

nymkfan51 said:
Here are some links to COC SP's:

Emily Hughes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJeo6UoVnEA

Shen & Zhao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KabhK8XLbGg

Evan Lysacek:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=9E2FB4203C17E387

Yukari Nakano:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=74983F98782D6427

Mai Asada:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=B67E1DFC77EDBAFD

nymkfan51 -

Is there a different company for yousendit and youtube. Youtube I can easily get the showing but for yousendit, all I get is kaleidescope colors.

Joe

rain · Nov 11, 2006

tae04 said:
This is such a weak field. None of the medalists here deserve to be at the Grand Prix Final. The weak Cup of Russia field, also. Will get someone in who doesn't deserve it.

Yes, this was my thought too in looking at the list of competitors. It's all pretty much second tier skaters. Nakano, Sokolova (who hasn't been in the mix under the new scoring system, really), Sebestyen. That's the weakness of the series deciding who's in the final. I doubt third place here will really be of the same calibre as third place at Skate Canada, for instance.

nymkfan51 · Nov 11, 2006

Joesitz said:
nymkfan51 -

Is there a different company for yousendit and youtube. Youtube I can easily get the showing but for yousendit, all I get is kaleidescope colors.

Joe

I think so, Joe. Before I got my new computer, I had the same problem with yousendit ... while youtube works just fine.

Surprise Surprise - Short Program Spoiler

Mathman

Sylvia

Ptichka

Forum translator

gio

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

nymkfan51

gio

gio

gio

Mathman

chuckm

gio

flying camel

Spun Silver

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

rain

nymkfan51

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