- Joined
- Nov 16, 2005
Mao almost needs to land at least one triple axel. She has no Salchow or toe. How in the world can she do a triple axel and not do a salchow or toe is strange.
NHK Trophy Preview
- Thread starter gsk8
- Start date
Yeah, that is a good question.
I haven't seen Mao's free program, so I can't say anything about FP but at SP Sarah should have been ahead of Kimmie at third place. In my opinion, at SA Sarah absolutely skated her SP better than Kimmie hers. Had Sarah been at third place in both programs, she might have get the bronze medal. Because of that and of course because of her performance at CoR I think she definetely deserves to be at GPF.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Now we're talking Joubert and again it's a Euro in St. Petersburg.
BTW. It's not the element scores that I don't understand. It's the fan's attitude that a no 3A will lose the competition but only in Lambiel's case. It's branding!!!
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Believe me as a Lambiel fan I need no telling the skating community, both fans and judges is against him and has been for a long time. He always has had to be light years better then somebody else to have a chance of beating them in a competition. They will look to downgrade any triple axel he lands even when landed perfectly, like at last years Worlds, and bend over backwards to undermine his scores in anyway they can. I dont think that is anything new and it is something he has dealt with his whole career and usually done so beating guys like Oda with no quad and less then top notch PCS skills.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I love Lambiel. I became a fan (along with everyone else who saw him) at 2004 Worlds. Our boy is clearly the best, head and shoulders above the rest, and he has two world championships to prove it.
But...if there is anything that might turn me against him it is the constant whining, sobbing, boo-hooing, wuzrobbing, everybody's-picking-on-poor-little-me attitude of some of his so-called fans.
Yes, he came out on the short end of a controversial call on his triple Axel last year. Boo hoo. I'm sure he cried about it all the way to the bank where he went to deposit his World Championship check. How many times do we have to reheat that bowl of cold soup?
(end of rant.
)
But...if there is anything that might turn me against him it is the constant whining, sobbing, boo-hooing, wuzrobbing, everybody's-picking-on-poor-little-me attitude of some of his so-called fans.
Yes, he came out on the short end of a controversial call on his triple Axel last year. Boo hoo. I'm sure he cried about it all the way to the bank where he went to deposit his World Championship check. How many times do we have to reheat that bowl of cold soup?
(end of rant.
)
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Exactly. The quad allows you to maximize points by alleviating the Zayak rule for triples, which force the skater without a quad into using the easiest triples. You can still do a quad (or quad combo) and a 3A and a 3A/3T combo -- like Lindemann did in Dortmund or like Plushenko did regularly -- and rack up the base score.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
To expand on what Hockeyfan just said, I was about to post this. (I guess I'll post it anyway, LOL.)
One more time, the point about the quad versus the triple Axel, to my way of thinking, is this.
If you do a quad and the other guy does a triple Axel, you are 1.5 points ahead on that element.
If you do two quads and the other guy does two triple Axels you are 3 points ahead.
It is better to be three points ahead than to be three points behind. But those three points are not enough, all by themselves, to guarantee a victory.
The true advantage in a quad is that it does not count against your quota of triples, so you can do a bunch of other stuff in addition to the quad.
No quad:
3A+3T
3A
3Lz+3Lo
3Lz
3F+2T+2Lo
3S
Now what?
If you have a quad but no triple Axel you are in the same predicament. Just substitute a quad toe for a triple Axel above, and you still cannot make maximum use of all your jumping passes.
But now look at this.
4T+3T
4T
3A+2Lo
3A
3Lz
3F
3Lo
3S
(For Joubert, substitute a 4S for the second 3A.)
That is an overwhelming advantage over the guy who has one jump but not the other.
One more time, the point about the quad versus the triple Axel, to my way of thinking, is this.
If you do a quad and the other guy does a triple Axel, you are 1.5 points ahead on that element.
If you do two quads and the other guy does two triple Axels you are 3 points ahead.
It is better to be three points ahead than to be three points behind. But those three points are not enough, all by themselves, to guarantee a victory.
The true advantage in a quad is that it does not count against your quota of triples, so you can do a bunch of other stuff in addition to the quad.
No quad:
3A+3T
3A
3Lz+3Lo
3Lz
3F+2T+2Lo
3S
Now what?
If you have a quad but no triple Axel you are in the same predicament. Just substitute a quad toe for a triple Axel above, and you still cannot make maximum use of all your jumping passes.
But now look at this.
4T+3T
4T
3A+2Lo
3A
3Lz
3F
3Lo
3S
(For Joubert, substitute a 4S for the second 3A.)
That is an overwhelming advantage over the guy who has one jump but not the other.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
I love Lambiel. I became a fan (along with everyone else who saw him) at 2004 Worlds. Our boy is clearly the best, head and shoulders above the rest, and he has two world championships to prove it.
But...if there is anything that might turn me against him it is the constant whining, sobbing, boo-hooing, wuzrobbing, everybody's-picking-on-poor-little-me attitude of some of his so-called fans.
Yes, he came out on the short end of a controversial call on his triple Axel last year. Boo hoo. I'm sure he cried about it all the way to the bank where he went to deposit his World Championship check. How many times do we have to reheat that bowl of cold soup?
(end of rant.
What if their wasnt qualifying at last years Worlds? Lambiel would have lost the title due to his downgraded triple axel. Lucky enough there was qualifying.
The fact that you are arguing that Lambiel might need his triple axel to beat Oda when he still has more jump value then Oda without it, and when every aspect of Oda's skating outside jumps is weaker shows, makes it even more ridiculous you are questioning Lambiel's fans pointing out his lack of respect. Lambiel needing his triple axel to beat Oda at this point is ridiculous.
If there was no qualifying, Lambiel would have lost the title because of his short program. He was fourth in the short, and Brian was first, and that would have been enough.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
But there was.
This is a simple fact. Lambiel MIGHT need a triple Axel to beat Oda. And he might not. It all depends on how well they skate. This is just common sense.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Not if his triple axel wasnt downgraded. He would have beaten by Joubert by enough points in the long to win overall otherwise. Go back and check the scores yourself.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
I was saying only if he makes alot of other mistakes, you were disputing that. The fact you are disputing that Lambiel might need his triple axel, even if he is farly clean the rest of the way, even with higher jump value excluding the triple axel then Oda, even though every other aspect of his skating is better then Oda's except maybe showmanship, makes it even more wrong you are arguing supporters of Lambiel complaining about his lack of respect. Since Lambiel should not need a triple axel to beat Oda right now, and you are arguing he does, which is basicaly a confirmation there is reason to talk about his lack of respect.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Some of the branding exists. Lambiel may win without a triple axel, duh. I think that presupposes he will never do a triple axel.
Regardles of the points. The quad is infinitely more difficult than the 3A. What are the chances that Oda will get a quad? or are we going to continue to describe
him as quadless?
I am of the ilk that skaters tend to improve until it just doesn't work anymore. Let's watch Lamiel try a 3A and Oda try a quad and then gaze at Joubert who for 2 years was at rock bottom.
Joe
Regardles of the points. The quad is infinitely more difficult than the 3A. What are the chances that Oda will get a quad? or are we going to continue to describe
him as quadless?
I am of the ilk that skaters tend to improve until it just doesn't work anymore. Let's watch Lamiel try a 3A and Oda try a quad and then gaze at Joubert who for 2 years was at rock bottom.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
I know perfectly well what might means and Lambiel should not maybe need the triple axel to beat Oda at this point in time if he limits his other mistakes. If he might need it vs Oda at this point in time, again assuming he limits any other mistakes, when he has higher jump value then Oda even without the quad, and when Oda does nothing better outside of jumps other then maybe showmanship it just validates why his fans think he is very undermined by judges and skating fans alike, the "whining" you refered to.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Oda probably misses his second triple axel in the long anyway, he almost always does and did again at Skate America. At Skate America his second triple axel attempt he got 1.7 points for IIRC. That would negate Lambiel doubling out/missing his triple axel likely. Lambiel can also add a double loop to one of his jumps in the long.
I think the biggest concern for Lambiel is the short program. Oda is a better short program skater then long program, he scored an 81 at Skate America which without a quad is an outrageously high score. Lambiel rarely does a totally clean short, a short with a doubled triple axel is actually 0.7 less jump value then one without a quad, and a miss in the combination costs you the 4 points you lose for the ommited triple toe plus the error for the first jump. If Lambiel gets through the short program close I dont see him losing as I see much better free skate then he had at Skate Canada. I would add Lambiel has much higher value spins in the short program then last year though and his potential scoring potential is much higher then his 80 personal best. He definitely has scoring potential of 85 or higher if he skates a totally clean short.
I think the biggest concern for Lambiel is the short program. Oda is a better short program skater then long program, he scored an 81 at Skate America which without a quad is an outrageously high score. Lambiel rarely does a totally clean short, a short with a doubled triple axel is actually 0.7 less jump value then one without a quad, and a miss in the combination costs you the 4 points you lose for the ommited triple toe plus the error for the first jump. If Lambiel gets through the short program close I dont see him losing as I see much better free skate then he had at Skate Canada. I would add Lambiel has much higher value spins in the short program then last year though and his potential scoring potential is much higher then his 80 personal best. He definitely has scoring potential of 85 or higher if he skates a totally clean short.
