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Thread: Free Dance

  1. #1
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    Free Dance

    http://www.isufs.org/results/gprus06/SEG009.HTM

    You can see the results at the above link or check out Anna's great reports.

    Looks like Dom/Shab would have won this but for their fall in the OD.
    I think Belbin/Agosto have been sent a clear message — their freedance doesn't cut it. If I was them I'd be going back to the drawing board. Their FD here scored a good 8-10 points below all of the other top contender's FD's from other competitions this season. That's not a hole you want to have to dig yourself out of at Worlds.

    Very surprised to see the scores for Del/Scho. Their FD at Eric Bompard scored eight points higher than this and had them in a virtual tie in the FD portion of the event with season favourites Denk/Stav. Usually the judging doesn't change that much — particularly in ice dance, with no falls, where there are no jumps to deliver the big point variations. It must be really hard for them. Which is the score they can anticipate getting close to at Worlds should they skate well? A point difference like that is the gap between competing for a medal and being top 10.

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    Thanks God!

    I don't care about ice dance and I don't watch at all. This is Russian mafia in full force, I am afraid to say so.

    Your PCS can jump from under 7s to 8s from March world championships in ice dance??? Give me a break. Russian magic indeed. Sorry to vent here, but Russian federation makes me have instinctly negative reaction to most Russian skaters.

    I know it's not fair, but....
    Last edited by iloveaxel; 11-26-2006 at 01:10 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Do not make the mistake of using GP events to forecast Worlds. Folks have done that before and were 100% wrong.

    DelShoes scored sky high at TEB because they were on home ice. I fully expected their FD score to drop at CoR because they were skating on DomShab's home ice; I figured they'd score in the 94-95 range. But DelShoes' FD dropped drastically because Olivier had a stumble and one of their lifts was severely downgraded. That they were so heavily penalized for their mistake was unexpected, but then they were in Russia, and they lost just enough points to fall behind DomShabs (who made their mistake in the OD).

    The main reason why GP events aren't a good measure of anything is that the GP, which takes place in 6 host sites, is very heavily influenced by politics and the home ice factor, and the composition of the judging panels and the tech team very much drives the scoring.

    For Ice Dance, probably Cup of China and NHK are the two events where home ice had/will have the least impact, since China and Japan have no top ice dance teams. But there are still those judging panels/tech teams.

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    ice dance

    looks like a joke to me. Pretty much a game manipulated by judges and skaters' federations.

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    Quad Queen cloudkicker09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iloveaxel View Post
    I don't care about ice dance and I don't watch at all. This is Russian mafia in full force, I am afraid to say so.

    Your PCS can jump from under 7s to 8s from March world championships in ice dance??? Give me a break. Russian magic indeed. Sorry to vent here, but Russian federation makes me have instinctly negative reaction to most Russian skaters.

    I know it's not fair, but....
    I second it statement. In my opinon everytime a Russian Team or skater retires, then another just replaces them on the podium, they are ruining the sport and making me sick.

    For them there is no honor in this or any other victory that is acheived through these wrongful ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudkicker09 View Post
    I second it statement. In my opinon everytime a Russian Team or skater retires, then another just replaces them on the podium, they are ruining the sport and making me sick.

    For them there is no honor in this or any other victory that is acheived through these wrongful ways.
    Obviously, ice dance is the easiest discipline to manipulate since there aren't a lot of high risky elements. The final scores depend largely on judges' call. So I guess ice dance is the one they're going for to corrupt the system.

    If there were not strong Chinese pairs who had already made their names, they would probably try to corrupt pairs as well. Thanks God, they can't easily do it here.

    They don't have strong skaters in singles' events, so thanks God there.

    On the whole, I can still enjoy three disciplines without any Russian intervention, so that's still okay for me.

    I've never watched ice dance, it's such a subjective discipline.
    Last edited by iloveaxel; 11-26-2006 at 03:29 PM.

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    pour atteindre l'inaccessible étoile! 1795's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Do not make the mistake of using GP events to forecast Worlds. Folks have done that before and were 100% wrong.

    DelShoes scored sky high at TEB because they were on home ice. I fully expected their FD score to drop at CoR because they were skating on DomShab's home ice; I figured they'd score in the 94-95 range. But DelShoes' FD dropped drastically because Olivier had a stumble and one of their lifts was severely downgraded. That they were so heavily penalized for their mistake was unexpected, but then they were in Russia, and they lost just enough points to fall behind DomShabs (who made their mistake in the OD).

    The main reason why GP events aren't a good measure of anything is that the GP, which takes place in 6 host sites, is very heavily influenced by politics and the home ice factor, and the composition of the judging panels and the tech team very much drives the scoring.

    For Ice Dance, probably Cup of China and NHK are the two events where home ice had/will have the least impact, since China and Japan have no top ice dance teams. But there are still those judging panels/tech teams.
    "home ice"
    i dont think so

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    ban Russian skaters

    Just imagine if we can ban all Russian skaters this season, the sport won't necessrily suffer.

    In pairs, we have Chinese and excellent German pair S&S. Pet&T is the only top Russian pair(now we have K&S, but they can represent Japan anyway:chorus: )

    In ladies, Russian skaters are not a factor, same to men's.

    In ice dance, if we don't have the Russians, and without the controversies, this discipline may become attractive again.

    So I propose to ban all Russian skaters at least this season in order to clean up the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1795 View Post
    "home ice"
    i dont think so
    I do think so. Let's see what happens at NHK. Gregory/Petukhov scored 90.35 in their FD at Skate America. I would be surprised to see them score that high at NHK. I also don't expect Dubreuil/Lauzon to score the 98.81 they got at Skate Canada.

    Home ice is a factor in skating, no doubt about it. Virtue/Moir got 88.29 for their FD at Skate Canada, and only 83.75 at TEB. Matthews/Zavozin got 83.94 for their FD at Skate America, but only 80.77 at CoR. Both of these teams skated well in their FD at each event, but the scores went down at the one not on home ice.

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    Penny & Nick! La Rhumba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    The main reason why GP events aren't a good measure of anything is that the GP, which takes place in 6 host sites, is very heavily influenced by politics and the home ice factor, and the composition of the judging panels and the tech team very much drives the scoring.
    So are you saying this is intrinsically unfair, as any icedancers who don't come from one of the 6 hosting nations automatically has no politics in their favour to start with? Where does that leave them?

    Also their opportunities to compete at the GPs are restricted, as a couple like Navarro/Bommentre get invited to SA and SC because they represent the US, even though they've never been ranked high enough nationally to be selected to compete at a WC, whilst dancers from non-GP hosting nations have to qualify via the previous year's WC or wait for an invitation from an imaginative GP Organizing Committee.
    I've always thought that is far from an ideal situation.

    The "tech team" as you describe are increasingly made up of recent ex-competitors, which I thought was a good move by the ISU, but obviously you feel they are incapable of being independent?

    [I can't speak for the GPs, but do know a Dance Tech Spec who competed at an Elite level, and officiated at a recent WC, and IMO she is 100% dedicated to her role as an independant assessor].

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    It's politics, and if you want to say that's unfair, OK, but there is no way of getting away from politics when you are talking ice dance. No matter what judging system you use, you can't eliminate the politics. Very often the outcome of a competition depends less on the performance than on the random selection of judges. Random selection may have worked in Belbin/Agosto's favor at CoR, and against them at CoC.

    I am not saying that the tech panel is corrupt or unfair. But some techs are more stringent than others and sometimes a downgraded element is all a few members of the judging panel need to reduce the PCS scores or pile on negative GOE for a non-favored skater.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    It's politics, and if you want to say that's unfair, OK, but there is no way of getting away from politics when you are talking ice dance. No matter what judging system you use, you can't eliminate the politics. Very often the outcome of a competition depends less on the performance than on the random selection of judges. Random selection may have worked in Belbin/Agosto's favor at CoR, and against them at CoC.

    I am not saying that the tech panel is corrupt or unfair. But some techs are more stringent than others and sometimes a downgraded element is all a few members of the judging panel need to reduce the PCS scores or pile on negative GOE for a non-favored skater.
    ITA. However the Soviet led Figure Skating drive is coming to an end. Their single skaters are now well below the European/Americas/Asian standard. It would be too obvious to 'fix' a competition in Singles and, of course S&Z would just cause another scandal if they lost to Obertas and Slavonov.

    In order to 'fix' a competition, there has to be a closeness with at least 2 entrants, eg: Lambiel/Oda. Not Lambiel/Griazev.

    One good thing with the Soviet system was to eke out talented young boys and girls and give them the best coaches and the means to concentrate soley on figure skating. I believe the Chinese are doing that now.

    Joe

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    Penny & Nick! La Rhumba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    It's politics, and if you want to say that's unfair, OK, but there is no way of getting away from politics when you are talking ice dance. No matter what judging system you use, you can't eliminate the politics. Very often the outcome of a competition depends less on the performance than on the random selection of judges. Random selection may have worked in Belbin/Agosto's favor at CoR, and against them at CoC.

    I am not saying that the tech panel is corrupt or unfair. But some techs are more stringent than others and sometimes a downgraded element is all a few members of the judging panel need to reduce the PCS scores or pile on negative GOE for a non-favored skater.
    Depressing thought. At least we know who the tech team are, as their names are announced. It might help with transparency if the Judging Panel's scores weren't anonymous. I know it's an old chestnut.

    I do wonder if sometimes it's just human error and confusion though?

    I refer to P&B's FD lift at SA being declared "illegal" and not scored, but by the time of TEB a few weeks later, apparantly it was "okay".....
    Last edited by La Rhumba; 11-26-2006 at 06:30 PM. Reason: ETA: Quote

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    Penny & Nick! La Rhumba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    One good thing with the Soviet system was to eke out talented young boys and girls and give them the best coaches and the means to concentrate soley on figure skating. I believe the Chinese are doing that now.

    Joe
    Certainly American icedance has benefitted from the exodus of Russian Coaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by La Rhumba View Post
    Certainly American icedance has benefitted from the exodus of Russian Coaches.
    But it's a two-edged sword. Igor Sphilband is responsible for the "That's Entertainment" FD. I wouldn't exactly call that a benefit for US ice dance.

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