Skaters qualifying for the Final

Kwanford Wife · Dec 5, 2006

Zuranthium said:
I won't argue this very much.

All I'm going to say is Kimmie Meissner was ahead of Sebestyen by 35 points this Grand Prix season. No matter what kind of judging was going on, she clearly did better and should have a spot in the GPF.

~Z

Ya know... I'm really looking for some guidance here.... Somebody please help me...

Is it truly unfair because of suspect judging and a flawed system that Sebestyen & Sara are going to the GPF because both won in weak fields when Kimmie & others had better comps against tighter fields or is my agreement w/ Z more about hating Sebestyen's skating and wishing to see the current world champ go against the best?? Am I being a baby?

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 5, 2006

Kwanford Wife said:
Ya know... I'm really looking for some guidance here.... Somebody please help me...

Is it truly unfair because of suspect judging and a flawed system that Sebestyen & Sara are going to the GPF because both won in weak fields when Kimmie & others had better comps against tighter fields or is my agreement w/ Z more about hating Sebestyen's skating and wishing to see the current world champ go against the best?? Am I being a baby?

I don't think anyone has mentioned the judges are at fault. Where did you here this?. However, Z is just questioning the system and I agree. According to the terms of the GPs, the people who won the right to skate in the Finals is correct.

It is not difficult for many to believe that the World Champion, and others, e.g. Sokolova, Rochette, Hughes, Poykio could also have been in the Finals but it just didn't happen. Some posters feel that there may be 2 weak skaters in the final to challenge the Asian contingent for a medal. Perhaps you think they are all equal. You could be right. But I believe the question is whether the lone Korean gal can get a place on the podium or will it be a Japanese sweep?

I believe the Ladies Finals will be interesting for my last above question, and I say, I'm sorry for the 5 gals who didn't make the finals but that's the way it is in Skateland.

I believe Z came up with a perfectly good suggestion of using the total points as the guide to the Finals rather than the number of wins in some GPs that do not have a good spread of most talented skaters. I would raise an eyebrow to that because I am one for not believing that all points spreads are equal, however it does eliminate the 'weak' fields in some GPs yet the weaker skaters can prove themselves with higher points. So no one is at a loss.

Of course, if one or two of the European Skaters get on the podium it will be a blast!

I have more concern with other disciplines that this one but that is another thread.

Joe

Kwanford Wife · Dec 5, 2006

Joesitz said:
I don't think anyone has mentioned the judges are at fault. Where did you here this?. However, Z is just questioning the system and I agree. According to the terms of the GPs, the people who won the right to skate in the Finals is correct.

It is not difficult for many to believe that the World Champion, and others, e.g. Sokolova, Rochette, Hughes, Poykio could also have been in the Finals but it just didn't happen. Some posters feel that there may be 2 weak skaters in the final to challenge the Asian contingent for a medal. Perhaps you think they are all equal. You could be right. But I believe the question is whether the lone Korean gal can get a place on the podium or will it be a Japanese sweep?

I believe the Ladies Finals will be interesting for my last above question, and I say, I'm sorry for the 5 gals who didn't make the finals but that's the way it is in Skateland.

I believe Z came up with a perfectly good suggestion of using the total points as the guide to the Finals rather than the number of wins in some GPs that do not have a good spread of most talented skaters. I would raise an eyebrow to that because I am one for not believing that all points spreads are equal, however it does eliminate the 'weak' fields in some GPs yet the weaker skaters can prove themselves with higher points. So no one is at a loss.

Of course, if one or two of the European Skaters get on the podium it will be a blast!

I have more concern with other disciplines that this one but that is another thread.

Joe

Ok. I must be brain dead today... I really need to seprate my loathing of an individual skater's ability from my ability to rationaly look at skating as a whole... Please forgive my whining...

Zuranthium · Dec 5, 2006

Kwanford Wife said:
Is it truly unfair because of suspect judging and a flawed system that Sebestyen & Sara are going to the GPF because both won in weak fields when Kimmie & others had better comps against tighter fields or is my agreement w/ Z more about hating Sebestyen's skating and wishing to see the current world champ go against the best?? Am I being a baby?

Sebestyen has matured a lot as a skater. Imo, she deserved slightly higher PCS marks for her performances than what Kimmie did.

However, her jumps simply weren't there. She (unfairly) won Cup of China with a 3-Triple performance and her 2nd place finish at Cup of Russia contained a long program with just 2 clean triples.

~Z

Mathman · Dec 5, 2006

Julia is 25, so if she is still "maturing," good for her. Maybe she'll do a Butyrskaya and win the world championship next year at age 26.

I like Z's latest compromise -- let in the top ten in point totals. Julia sneaks in at number 9 (or 10, if we give Emily Hughes a few more points to compensate for bad calls at Cup of China.)

hockeyfan228 · Dec 5, 2006

Was it "fair" when, after Slutskaya's mom needed her in 2003, and she did not skate at DC Worlds, Cohen ended up in the same qualification round as Kwan and Sokolova, who went 1-2 that year, while Suguri's toughest competition in her quali was Jennifer Robinson and Victoria Volchkova? By placing 3rd in QA vs. Suguri's 1st in QB, Cohen lost a chance at a world medal, despite beating Suguri in the LP.

Is it "fair" when a baseball team at the top of one division wins a spot in the playoffs, when its record would have put it in 4th in the strongest division, and two teams in that division with stronger records missed the playoffs as a result? Or when the records of teams in a tough division are worse than they would have been, because they played a higher percentage of intra-divisional games, i.e, more games against tougher teams?

Is it "fair" when in any single-elimination sport, some teams or competitors face far tougher challenges and the other bracket breezes through?

I think it is, and over time, the differences smooth out. It is a rare season when a sub-par, although improved from last season, Sebestyen could even qualify based on placement, let alone scores. But she had a little help from her friends, Worlds #4 (Sokolova), 5 (Nakano), 8 (Hughes), 10 (Korpi), and 11 (Onda). If Sebestyen skated badly, they skated even worse, and CoR winner, World #6, Sarah Meier, didn't even beat Sebestyen in the SP there.

SeaniBu · Dec 5, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Was it "fair" ....

I think the term "Fair" is a relative term, but I will say yes to most of that post. It is the way the sports are set up that create these things to happen. If a team or "player" had issues - injury etc..- at the beginning of the year and was able to get back at it and bring "themselves to the top" by the end when it matters, yes they deserve it. JMO

Mathman · Dec 5, 2006

To me, any system is "fair" as long as the rules are clear-cut and apply to every skater equally. I would almost say that this is the definition of fair.

That is why (to respond to Joe's lament above) it would not have been "fair" to have one set of rules about Olympic eligibility that apply just to Mao Asada, and a different set of rules that apply to everyone else. Change the rules by all means if you want to, but apply them equally to everyone.

The reason that I lean more toward the present system of seeding the GP finals, rather than putting more emphasis on individual point totals, is not because of concerns about "fairness." Either system is fair in the sense mentioned above, and under either (or any) system there will always be a lot of wuzrobbin' when the final selection comes down.

Instead, what I am most interested in is making the Grand prix series exciting and interesting to the fans. The goal of the GP final is not (IMHO) to gather together all the best skaters in the world and see who's the best -- we already have that. Its the World Championship. What do we need the Grand Prix for?

But the idea of a 6 event tournament that can stand on it's own, where each event is a big deal all by itself, where the skaters go after big money prizes as well as bragging rights (Miki beat both Kimmie and Mao at Skate America -- I don't think she's moaning about how strong the competition was), then a final skate-off that brings together, for the most part, the winners of the individual heats -- I think that's pretty cool. :rock:

enlight78 · Dec 5, 2006

Well in my mind Tennis have four world championships every year. And i enjoy watching every one of them. And I have come to believe their really only two kind of fairness. Equal treatment vs Equal opportunity. No one wants to take away Julia's medals, boasting rights, or prize money; but must she be in the Grand Prix Final.Why do people keep making comparison to team sports? Figure skating is the one of the most individual sport there is.

Zuranthium · Dec 5, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Was it "fair" when Cohen ended up in the same qualification round as Kwan and Sokolova, who went 1-2 that year, while Suguri's toughest competition in her quali was Jennifer Robinson and Victoria Volchkova? By placing 3rd in QA vs. Suguri's 1st in QB, Cohen lost a chance at a world medal, despite beating Suguri in the LP.

No, it wasn't fair. Under CoP Cohen would have been the Bronze medalist that year (most likely anyway) b/c the actual performances are what count, not arbitrary rankings. The way that the GPF placements are decided totally goes against what CoP was supposed to be about.

I don't really care about your other examples as they have little to do with the topic at hand - ice skating.

~Z

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 5, 2006

Kwanford Wife said:
Ok. I must be brain dead today... I really need to seprate my loathing of an individual skater's ability from my ability to rationaly look at skating as a whole... Please forgive my whining...

Nothing wrong with loathing except the loathee just might win the Worlds. It happens. Since La Kwan is out of the running, it is easy for me to sit back and let the good times roll without worrying anymore. Kurt and Michelle are gone but they will always be the best for me.

I now like to watch the various pre-Worlds competitions and decide who I think should make the podium. In all modesty, I take pride in getting 2 out of 3 correct. As for the gold, I really think the one who was best that night deserves it regardless of nationality, or whether I loathe the skater (some I do). There usually is one in each discipline that I think should win but it doesn't happen all the time. How many posters hate the idea of Lambiel winning another championship, yet he just might. Posters have thought that before.

It seems to me that the powers that be in Dance are ganging up on Delob and Schern as they did on Denk and Stav in previous years. Any one who could win gold has to go! Room for gold has been made for Domina and Shabalan for this year's Worlds. Just my politcal mind.

I digressed. Whoa.

Joe

hockeyfan228 · Dec 5, 2006

Zuranthium said:
No, it wasn't fair. Under CoP Cohen would have been the Bronze medalist that year (most likely anyway) b/c the actual performances are what count, not arbitrary rankings.

I wouldn't be so sure that under CoP Cohen would have made up the ground she lost in the SP.

Zuranthium said:
The way that the GPF placements are decided totally goes against what CoP was supposed to be about.

By that logic, why hold the World Championships at all? Why not just make the person with the highest total score for the season World Champion? Or the highest combined scores for the season?

Zuranthium · Dec 5, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
I wouldn't be so sure that under CoP Cohen would have made up the ground she lost in the SP.

In comparison to Suguri she didn't even have much ground to make up after the SP. She would have gotten -1 on her Lutz combination and -4 for falling on the Flip. However, the judges gave her slighty higher presentation marks than Suguri even with that fall. When you also factor in Sasha getting more points for her spins than Suguri, she probably would have only been behind by a couple points.

hockeyfan228 said:
By that logic, why hold the World Championships at all? Why not just make the person with the highest total score for the season World Champion? Or the highest combined scores for the season?

You're asking a purposefully dumb question. Why not just determine the World Champion by looking at their rankings from all of their previous competitions that season? Obviously you can't.

However, what we are talking about is the GPF. A competition that is about seeing the skaters who gave the best performances in the Grand Prix circuit that season. Looking at the overall point totals is undoubtedly the optimal way of determining who did best in the Grand Prix that year.

~Z

hockeyfan228 · Dec 6, 2006

Zuranthium said:
In comparison to Suguri she didn't even have much ground to make up after the SP. She would have gotten -1 on her Lutz combination and -4 for falling on the Flip. However, the judges gave her slighty higher presentation marks than Suguri even with that fall. When you also factor in Sasha getting more points for her spins than Suguri, she probably would have only been behind by a couple points.

No so much in the SP, since Suguri had a blazing combo spin in both programs. She would start out fast on her first two jumps, circling the rink to gain speed into them, slow down in the middle of the program, and then finish with fast circular footwork and a very fast spin. She gave the appearance of being a very fast skater, because the end was what the judges remembered.

Zuranthium said:
You're asking a purposefully dumb question.

Not at all. The question is where do you stop taking finite results from individual competitions and comparing them?

Zuranthium said:
However, what we are talking about is the GPF. A competition that is about seeing the skaters who gave the best performances in the Grand Prix circuit that season.

That's your assumption. My conclusion, based on the rules for GPF selection, is that the GPF consists of the skaters who competed the best over the course of the GP events, just like almost every individual world cup-like scoring system in the sports world. When two skaters compete identically according to the points system, there are tie-breakers, and the hierarchy of those tie-breakers is placement and total points. So actual points earned is a factor. And, no, I don't think that other sports are irrelevant to figure skating, or that figure skating rules should necessarily stand alone from all other individual sports.

Zuranthium · Dec 6, 2006

hockeyfan228 said:
Not at all. The question is where do you stop taking finite results from individual competitions and comparing them?

Umm, you don't (and that wasn't the question you posed). Since you want to bring up other sports...when does that ever happen in ANY other sport. It doesn't. People always talk about "wow they had a great season", "wow they were great at that competition". Individual football players are judged by how many touchdowns they've made, how many interceptions they've had, how many fieldgoals they've kicked. Same for Basketball with the number of shots each player has made, or assists, or steals.

Each competition is symbolic of something different, though. For the World Championships of Ice Skating it is supposed to be seen as the skaters having trained for a year, being as comfortable with their programs as they'll ever be, and having more pressure on them than they've had the entire year (unless it's an Olympic year). The World Championships is THE critical point at which all the skaters can come together, say they're ready, and see who can deliver the best.

~Z

Tonichelle · Dec 6, 2006

Zuranthium said:
No, it wasn't fair. Under CoP Cohen would have been the Bronze medalist that year (most likely anyway) b/c the actual performances are what count, not arbitrary rankings. The way that the GPF placements are decided totally goes against what CoP was supposed to be about.

I don't really care about your other examples as they have little to do with the topic at hand - ice skating.

~Z

right skating's not a sport at all and therefore should not work as one

/sarcasm

I couldn't agree with MM or hockeyfan's posts on the 'fairness' of the GP

Zuranthium · Dec 6, 2006

I have no idea what you just said.

~Z

antmanb · Dec 6, 2006

Zuranthium said:
Also...

Julia Sebestyen should have placed 3rd at Cup of China anyway, not 1st. She beat Yukari Nakano and Emily Hughes at that competition by just 2 points and if you look at the protocols, both Nakano and Hughes had jumps unfairly downgraded by the tech specialist.

In fact, Hughes had THREE of her triples downgraded in her long program. I've watched the performance several times and none of those triples had more than the allowed quarter turn cheat. PLUS, she did a Beillman spin that was only given a level 1, I don't think that was correct. She should have won the competition. If given correct credit for those jumps, she also would have had a much higher overall Grand Prix score than Sebestyen.

Which means that Sebestyen is truly the TENTH ranked competitor for this Grand Prix season. Yet, according to the "placements" she's actually 2nd, right behind Miki Ando. GROSS.

~Z

Erm...ok....if you repeat it several times it doesn't come true you know!!

I've not seen the performances but i don't doubt that callers can mess up the call and say a jump is underrotated etc. Doesn't this just prove my point that youc an't compare scores from different judgin panels? If you think Hughes should have gotten much higher marks?

Also just one observations - the rules on Biellmann spins say that you have to hold the classic layback for a certain number of rotations before doing the Biellmann in order to get the level enhancer? Maybe that's where Hughes had a problem?

Coudl it also be that you natioanlistic biases are also colouring your opinions a little here?

Ant

antmanb · Dec 6, 2006

Zuranthium said:
I won't argue this very much.

All I'm going to say is Kimmie Meissner was ahead of Sebestyen by 35 points this Grand Prix season. No matter what kind of judging was going on, she clearly did better and should have a spot in the GPF.

~Z

In your opinion!

Ant

antmanb · Dec 6, 2006

Joesitz said:
I tried desperately to have Mao go to the Olys but it was not I got bombarded with the RULES.
Joe

What exactly did you do to try to get Mao to go to the Olys Joe?! :laugh:

Ant

Skaters qualifying for the Final

Kwanford Wife

Joesitz (RIP)

Kwanford Wife

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Mathman

hockeyfan228

SeaniBu

Mathman

enlight78

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

hockeyfan228

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

hockeyfan228

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

antmanb

antmanb

antmanb

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