Marketing of FS

Tonichelle · Dec 7, 2006

gio said:
How many stereotypes you have expressed!!!! I hope it isn't true that most Americans think that FS = Femenine sport. That thinking it will be just... wel narrow minded.
NO SPORT IS FEMENINE AND NO SPORT IS MASCULINE IMO!!!!! This is enforcing social and sexual norms.

American sportsfans are VERY narrow minded, which if you had read all the way through vodka's post you would have understood that's what we're getting at. You're not going to change the minds of Americans... we're just so stubborn! LOL

Even *I* associate it as a more feminine sport... not 'gay' just not as masculine as say... American Football or Hockey...

My dad is one of the few straight men who doesn't care who's skating, he'll watch, he has his favorites (which lately we've disagreed on just about every skater out there) and he loves the sport, but even he makes the distinction jokes... it just happens. Much as I love my dad he's just as narrowminded as the average "Joe" on the street who can't stand to watch men 'prance around' on the ice.

stereotypical or not, this mindset is what I believe drives ESPN to chack skating for another round of the World Poker Tourneys

Look at it this way... a few years ago a successful football player came out and said he was gay, the initial shock lasted MAYBE a week and then life went on as normal... however the American media is still wondering who of the US men are gay and who aren't... it's that double standard... because this outted guy is in football his sexuality doesn't matter... but Johnny, Evan, etc are always going to be under the microscope because they're in figure skating.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 7, 2006

I agree that american men are not overwhelmed with figure skating but they are there in the arenas watching along with their wives and girlfriends discussing the possibilities of who will win. They may have been brought to the arena by their gals and have begun to like it after a while.

I also think American men are not exactly overwhelmed with Tennis, Diving, Gymnastics, or any other sport that is not a team sport.

Going to an arena to watch figure skating and not hockey is not like one is going to a gay bar. Sterotyping gays is wrong. Too many police oficers, military men, religous men are gay and are not concerned with figure skating.

You have to remember when it started it was a Men's Only sport and not until Jackson Haines decided to use music did it become a faux artistic form. Of course, once women joined the club the skirts eventually came on and then shortened and then went into designer costumes. Maybe its women who turned the sport into an efete athletic mode. (I'll get bashed for saying that)

But all that is not keeping figure skating from losing its appeal on TV as of now.

A sport - any sport - can only interest a certain amount of people. Every four years may be just enough for most if any to watch figure skating.

BTW, women's team sports are doing well. I hope no one stereotypes all them.

Joe

gio · Dec 7, 2006

Vodka Shot said:
I think a lot of fans of this sport esp. the ones that have loved it for so long don’t realize how deeply ingrained these stereotypes are in America. We want to think it’s not true but, I seriously think the avg. person see’s the sport this way.

That situation is really sad. How can this change??

I have a question. In your opinion were these stereotypes also 40 years ago or are a new thing. What were the avg. persons thinking of FS when Dick Button and Tenley Albright competed? FS was very different from now (school figures, men in formal costumes, less emphasis on expressing the music)

Vodka Shot · Dec 7, 2006

My dad is one of the few straight men who doesn't care who's skating, he'll watch,

At least your dad watches it w/ you. Mine walks in the room long enough to make snide hurtful comments and then leaves. Maybe we should switch dads?

I didn’t mean to make it sound like ALL American men are like that. I’m sure many of you know straight American men comfortable enough w/ their sexuality and/or cultured enough to watch this sport. I’ve meant many online. Never in real life though but, I live in the rural south. When I read that they want more male viewing my blood chills b/c I just think how can they interest the avg. American guy into watching, what would they have to do? I’m afraid the sport would be twisted and changed so much that they would ruin it. It’s a very sad situation. Someone tell me I'm wrong and that they won't change it. Please.

anya_angie · Dec 7, 2006

Vodka,

Speaking as a skating fan who grew up with a football-obsessed older brother, I understand your analysis completely. My brother thinks EXACTLY the way you analyzed the average American straight (and sexually insecure) guy thinks. My stepfather is like this as well though I don't know if he's a FS fan, he would certainly KILL me if he found out I own the DVD of Brokeback Mountain. And I'm a straight girl!

R.D. · Dec 7, 2006

gio said:
How many stereotypes you have expressed!!!! I hope it isn't true that most Americans think that FS = Femenine sport. That thinking it will be just... wel narrow minded.
NO SPORT IS FEMENINE AND NO SPORT IS MASCULINE IMO!!!!! This is enforcing social and sexual norms.

Nah, it's true actually. It's a very common thought among a LOT of straight American men. I can confirm this being one myself. But then I say, who cares what other people think?

There's a very similar reason I'll never watch men's, pairs, or ice dance. I just don't see the appeal of it, and I think it's for the same reason that other straight American men don't care for it. It's just not my thing, you know. And I don't think any kind of change to it will get me to watch, anyway.

gsrossano · Dec 7, 2006

I can't say for TV, but I spend a lot of times in arenas, and my estimate is that 3/4 of the audience in an arena is women and children. Of the men, maybe half are boyfriends and husbands and the other half are gay men. I agree with the comment that if skating were changed so that "Joe" wanted to watch it and considered it a pure sport, you would have to make drastic changes, and then all you would do is pick up a few Joes and lose much of the current audience. So the comment, accept it for what it is, is right on. Sadly, even in local competitions there are a lot of dads who don't even show up for their kids competition, or they come and watch there own child and then leave mom and the kid at the rink for the rest of it while dad goes and does something else.

Also, I think a lot of the problem is that American culture is totally screwed up when it comes to what should be the interests/behavior of a straight man. Its everywhere in our culture now. Apprently for a straight man to be interested in anything that doesn't invlove beer, shoving fast food in your face like a total slob, or violence is suspect. The problem is not just in skating. Action films ok for men, chick flicks not. Pop/rock concerts yes for men, ballet, opera, theatre, symphony, for men, not. Art museums feminine, science and technology museums masculine. Etc.

There are plenty of people who like the basic essence of skating the way it is. Yes, it could be better in many details, but the essence of skating is fine the way it is. Rather than seek out a demographic that can never be reached without ruining what we have (destroying the city, to save it), the emphasis should be to support the audience we have (or had) and to make skating economically viable with the base we have -- and bringing back the women and kids over the last few years that have been lost for reasons that have nothing to so with the "look" of skating.

Wolfgang · Dec 7, 2006

Here's what I want:
To see the entire competition, not just the winners and Americans. (aka the 'showdown' syndrome)

To never have to see and hear Dick Button again. Drop him off at his favorite spot in Central Park and leave him there.

Automatic points deductions for any male skater who shows up in a Fairy Queen costume. (Don't lift the lady too high in Dancing, don't wear sequined lace teddies, same thing....)

Equal emphasis on 'artistic' versus 'athletic' skaters. At this point, it seems that at least the US commentators sem to concur that if you can't do at least 3 quads, you just suck, regardless of what else you do out there on that oval frozen pond.

Automatic bonus points for any lady who has the guts to show up with (at least partially) free flowing hair (Tanith Belbin...) as opposed to that dreadful Cold War borderguard bun.

Audience participation in the scoring. Sort of like in those goofy TV shows like 'Dancing with the washed up Stars'. The Russian judge may give a 2, but the audience is screaming loud enough to shiver the rafters, so she wins anyway......

Yes, I know, none of this is possible.

R.D. · Dec 7, 2006

So say we get what we asked for. Just for one year a hypothetical TV network decides to air complete coverage of the events. Commentary is dropped and limited only to K&C moments. And on top of that, you throw in audience participation.

How is that going to help boost ratings? I'm going to take a moment and think about this from the TV network's point of view. Really, all you're doing is gratifying your core audience and it's doing nothing to boost ratings (and therefore attract NEW viewers). In fact, ratings may even continue on the downward trend (although maybe not quite as fast). So what do you do?

The core audience hates things like fluff pieces and intro movies, but that's what acquaints (sp?) the regular surfer with the competitors. Just one thing: keep them under three minutes- no one wants to see a biography. I think an explanation of the alien scoring system could help, too. I notice that unless you watched Olympic Ice, NBC didn't really do much to introduce TV viewers to the new Code of points scoring system (unless they did it during the men's comp?).

Automatic bonus points for any lady who has the guts to show up with (at least partially) free flowing hair (Tanith Belbin...)

krenseby · Dec 7, 2006

gsrossano said:
I can't say for TV, but I spend a lot of times in arenas, and my estimate is that 3/4 of the audience in an arena is women and children. Of the men, maybe half are boyfriends and husbands and the other half are gay men. I agree with the comment that if skating were changed so that "Joe" wanted to watch it and considered it a pure sport, you would have to make drastic changes, and then all you would do is pick up a few Joes and lose much of the current audience. So the comment, accept it for what it is, is right on. Sadly, even in local competitions there are a lot of dads who don't even show up for their kids competition, or they come and watch there own child and then leave mom and the kid at the rink for the rest of it while dad goes and does something else.

Also, I think a lot of the problem is that American culture is totally screwed up when it comes to what should be the interests/behavior of a straight man. Its everywhere in our culture now. Apprently for a straight man to be interested in anything that doesn't invlove beer, shoving fast food in your face like a total slob, or violence is suspect. The problem is not just in skating. Action films ok for men, chick flicks not. Pop/rock concerts yes for men, ballet, opera, theatre, symphony, for men, not. Art museums feminine, science and technology museums masculine. Etc.

There are plenty of people who like the basic essence of skating the way it is. Yes, it could be better in many details, but the essence of skating is fine the way it is. Rather than seek out a demographic that can never be reached without ruining what we have (destroying the city, to save it), the emphasis should be to support the audience we have (or had) and to make skating economically viable with the base we have -- and bringing back the women and kids over the last few years that have been lost for reasons that have nothing to so with the "look" of skating.

No offense, but all the gender based rules that you have just outlined don't really apply.

I mean the idea that straight men only like beer and action films and dislike art and museums is just moronic.

Lo and behold, I have seen men in museums! Believe it or not, I have also seen men in the audience of art films.

And I'll let you on another secret: There are men out there who participate in figure skating! And they are also straight!

The problem with figure skating is not that it cannot draw a male audience in the US. It can't draw a general audience, both male and female. I could round up quite a few females, who have no idea about figure skating! Even though their love of flowers and costumes should supposely turn them into figure skating fans!

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 7, 2006

Living in New York, I can honestly say gay men there do not like figure skating. They're busy making money in all sorts of industry and spending money going to the Yankee Stadium, The Metropolitan Museum of Art and other sundry things just like their straight counterparts.

The straight men in New York are not compelled to say they are not gay. They are positive about their sexuality and do not have to announce it. Maybe there is less bigotry in NY. I dunno.

Grossano - How are you about women in team sports?

Bottom Line is I don't believe the gay men who happen to like figure skating are bringing the sport down and neither do any other stereotypes whom you will find in the arena. They and others are supporting the sport

Joe.

gsrossano · Dec 8, 2006

krenseby said:
No offense, but all the gender based rules that you have just outlined don't really apply.

I mean the idea that straight men only like beer and action films and dislike art and museums is just moronic.

Lo and behold, I have seen men in museums! Believe it or not, I have also seen men in the audience of art films.

And I'll let you on another secret: There are men out there who participate in figure skating! And they are also straight!

The problem with figure skating is not that it cannot draw a male audience in the US. It can't draw a general audience, both male and female. I could round up quite a few females, who have no idea about figure skating! Even though their love of flowers and costumes should supposely turn them into figure skating fans!

They are not rules. They are not observations. There are any number of activities (and occupations) where men are way in the minority. Fact is ther are still large sections of society that view certain activities/occupations as being for men, and others for women. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. And to cross over takes a person secure in their own identity. For guys in skating it means not caring if someone assumes they are gay if they skate. For women in the workplace it means putting up with gender inequality and fighting to be taken seriously in jobs dominated by men.

(And minority doesn't mean zero, it means less than half.)

gsrossano · Dec 8, 2006

Joesitz said:
Grossano - How are you about women in team sports?

I assume you mean mixed gender teams?

For professional sports -- not sure. For college sports -- not sure.

For every thing else (high school, little league, synchro skating, etc. etc.) absolutely fine. Having boys/girls skate in the same events at the lower levels, ok with me (though it's against the rules, and most boys wouldn't want to compete that way.)

Tonichelle · Dec 8, 2006

Vodka Shot said:
At least your dad watches it w/ you. Mine walks in the room long enough to make snide hurtful comments and then leaves. Maybe we should switch dads?

no I need my skating buddy... besides him there's my 11 year old brother who is in it for the entertainment value (much like I was at that age) who would rather watch a bunch of jumps or funny programs to anything completely balanced (but for all of that the kid has great taste... his sports hero has been Kurt Browning since he was 4 years old!)

Not every man in the US is anti-skating, but the "average joe" is... a lot of women don't like it either. I'm the only one that works in a photo studio who likes the sport... all the guys working there are straight, but everyone who comes in asks the girls how it's like being the more masculine of the group... which we all look really confused because none of the guys are even remotely 'that way'...

I dunno maybe it's an Alaskan thing (Lord knows we're out of touch with the rest of you and vice versa, must be all those penguins taking over up here

)

gio · Dec 8, 2006

gsrossano said:
Apprently for a straight man to be interested in anything that doesn't invlove beer, shoving fast food in your face like a total slob, or violence is suspect. The problem is not just in skating. Action films ok for men, chick flicks not. Pop/rock concerts yes for men, ballet, opera, theatre, symphony, for men, not. Art museums feminine, science and technology museums masculine. Etc.

All I can say is "Oh, my goodness!" I hope that your description isn't true!
So, in America if you like violence you are straight, if not you are gay? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that in USA people think in that way!
Practically you are saying that the avg American man is interested just in action movies, football, bear and violence, because if not, people will question their sexuality?

gio · Dec 8, 2006

Anyway I have a consideration. I read at wikipedia (On the Kat Witt page) that the number of Playboy featuring Kat Witt was the second sold-out issue in the history of the magazine. This means that a lot of avg straight men knew who Kat Witt was and were more interested in seeing her than for example Pam Anderson! I think that some American avg straight men watch skating, but they don't want to admit it!

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 8, 2006

gsrossano said:
I assume you mean mixed gender teams?

For professional sports -- not sure. For college sports -- not sure.

For every thing else (high school, little league, synchro skating, etc. etc.) absolutely fine. Having boys/girls skate in the same events at the lower levels, ok with me (though it's against the rules, and most boys wouldn't want to compete that way.)

There are professional woman's basketball teams. The NY team is called Liberty. Of course, in addition to figure skating, women participate in Golf and Tennis. Definitely Soccer.

The only sport I know of where boys and girls compete in the same events is in Equestrian. However, there may be more coming along. Golf seems to be opening up their biggies for women too. I just don't care about their sexual identities.

Joe

Mathman · Dec 8, 2006

I really don't think that making figure skating a sportlier sport, and playing up the awesome sportliness of this sportly sport, will increase it's popularity.

Speed skating is a sportly sport. But no one watches it.

LizzieBeth · Dec 8, 2006

I watch skating for it's unique combination of athleticism and art - a lot like dance but with more speed! I also like diving and gymnastics. I have come to the conclusion that what I really like is individual sports instead of team competition like basketball and football.

TV sports is geared to the team sports which seem to appeal to all the men I am acquainted with. They just don't get how to broadcast individual sports. I have the same gripe with how they show gymnastics - only the "top" contenders and never the whole competition. They seldom show "up and comers" so you can watch them develop.

Totally off topic - I was watching ESPN one day and they had some kind of food eating contest on. It was disgusting and why does that belong on a sports channel?? They really must want that 13 year old boy demographic!!

krenseby · Dec 8, 2006

Mathman said:
I really don't think that making figure skating a sportlier sport, and playing up the awesome sportliness of this sportly sport, will increase it's popularity.

Speed skating is a sportly sport. But no one watches it.

Mathman, I've noticed that both males and females seem to be both very aware of skating at the Olympics.

I've heard both guys an girls talk about Cohen vs. Slutskaya vs. Arakawa.

Ironically, most however, seemed to have skipped the 2004 World Championships because they thought that Shizuka was an unknown skater.

The problem with skating ratings seems to be is that nobody believes the World Championships to be important. It has always been about the Olympics.

Marketing of FS

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Joesitz (RIP)

gio

Vodka Shot

anya_angie

R.D.

gsrossano

Wolfgang

R.D.

krenseby

Joesitz (RIP)

gsrossano

gsrossano

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

gio

gio

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

LizzieBeth

krenseby

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