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Thread: Anonymous Judging

  1. #1
    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Anonymous Judging

    I feel this will be ignored if not posted as a new thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What secret judging does do is make it harder to catch people when they cheat.
    I hate to open myself up for more target practice, but - how? It is just a thought and I don't mean to sound like I am just causing waves, I am not. Please read in full for I know I have made an acceptable argument, but often have a hard time putting it in words for some here to understand. Sorry "up front."

    So on how it makes it easier to cheat... I am in disagreement - and will humbly accept a point if I see it. - NO sarcasm intended at all. Just respectfully inquisitive.
    The public did not catch the conspirators?
    The skaters did not either?
    They rose a "stink," but they still can, just not toward a particular judge. Just the score. Defamation of character is still slander whether it is the right thing to do or not. It might have something to do with slander laws. ????
    It was the "committee," who is still able to see who is judging and can still hold them accountable. AND they don't have to release any information on who, just what, and they still get held accountable just not by the public or the skaters. That "side steps" slander laws. And slander is very sticky - the law does not seem right sometimes I agree.

    The only thing I think that validates NOT having it be anonymous is if one were to assume that nothing would have been done if not for the public / skaters uproar. And on that same note, the public can still have contest with the scores that are placed, as well as the skaters. The only thing that has changed as far as I can see is you wouldn't know who you are contesting, just the score - which the "committee" will know exactly who it is. So they will still be as likely to get busted without the public having another reason to question FS or "destroy" someone for a mistake - however serious it maybe.

    Public and skaters Can STILL uproar about score, just not individual Judge - which might also fall in the category of prejudice. Where as if we are screaming about the score unassociated with the judge, it is that much more likely a valid "gripe" rather than just saying "the Russians scored us low, its unfair." Now it is "the score here was low and that is unfair. Much more likely to believe someone who has a gripe without the possibility of prejudice. It is immediate validation that the score is the problem, not the judge themselves. The separation of blaming a person immediately validates a qualm by saying the action is in question, NOT the person.

    It seems like I am in left field all by my lonesome, but have not had any reason to come in because there is still just one out. I don't want to make anyone mad, I am very open to learning. But I still feel like the decision was a good one for the whole of FS. The judges are still going to be held accountable, just that the public is not nearly as involved - that alone is a good thing IMO.

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    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    I understand your point I just do care for it. I also understand how random judging come into effect. What would be the whole point of going throught the trouble to cheat when the score may not even count.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enlight78 View Post
    I understand your point I just do care for it. I also understand how random judging come into effect. What would be the whole point of going throught the trouble to cheat when the score may not even count.
    Thank you, that is one aspect fore sure.

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    You just don't get it. When you have 3 Russian judges on a panel (one from Russia, one from Uzbekistan and one from Azerbaijan) Russia has the power to make deals with other judges because they have a loaded hand. All it takes is two or three other judges, and it is guaranteed that some of those 5 judges WILL be randomly selected and they can indeed affect the outcome of the competition.

    Many of the judges still out there have cheated before and gotten away with it. There is no reason for them not to cheat again now that they can do it under the cover of secrecy. Be real.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    You have lost integrity. I hope you are not a judge. Are you CZ? Listen to some Aretha Franklin ...respect.

    Your integrity maybe shot, but that doesn't mean everyone else's is too.

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    OK chucky, why aren't you leading the ISU.... I think I know.

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    eta, sorry to "stoop."

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    You just don't get it. When you have 3 Russian judges on a panel (one from Russia, one from Uzbekistan and one from Azerbaijan) Russia has the power to make deals with other judges because they have a loaded hand. All it takes is two or three other judges, and it is guaranteed that some of those 5 judges WILL be randomly selected and they can indeed affect the outcome of the competition.

    Many of the judges still out there have cheated before and gotten away with it. There is no reason for them not to cheat again now that they can do it under the cover of secrecy. Be real.
    Then why are you a fan of FS. quit crying and give some respectful comments. No one needs your over opinionated BS. Help or leave.

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    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    Whoo nelly, what is up with the personal diggs against posters? People should be able to post their own opinions.
    Is this the same poster who just told off chuckm?

    Maybe it is best for all of us to stop kicking each other out of threads or discussions and leave that kind of decision to our gentle mods.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    You have lost integrity. I hope you are not a judge. Are you CZ? Listen to some Aretha Franklin ...respect.

    Your integrity maybe shot, but that doesn't mean everyone else's is too.
    I would show respect but proven, tried convicted cheaters and toe tappers are still judging. I've forgottenthe names (and spellings of most) but Danilenko is one right? Another toe tapper beginning with "B" is still judging.
    (Edited to add - it was Yuri Balkov who i was thinking of here.)

    The reason people are up in arms are because they are still allowed to cheat. They were caught cheating because of open judging. Now that we have annonymous judging we cannot see it. Sicne the toe tappers camaras are not allowed behind the judges anymore. Is this an attemt to add integrity and respect to our sport? No its a means of cvoering up the truly rotten apples.

    If you want a clean house the ISU should have thrown out all the bad apples, including the ones who ceated in SLC. Instead, the cheaters were banned for three years and allowed to judge again, yet eh whistle blowers who alerted the ISU and the world to cheating were banned for life....

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 12-13-2006 at 06:05 AM. Reason: edited cos his name came to me!

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    They rose a "stink," but they still can, just not toward a particular judge. Just the score. Defamation of character is still slander whether it is the right thing to do or not. It might have something to do with slander laws. ????
    It was the "committee," who is still able to see who is judging and can still hold them accountable. AND they don't have to release any information on who, just what, and they still get held accountable just not by the public or the skaters. That "side steps" slander laws. And slander is very sticky - the law does not seem right sometimes I agree.

    But the one thing you must remember is that the one fool proof defence to an accusation of slander is proof that your statement is true.

    I can go on every board on the internet (though this would obviously be libel in the case of the written word) and have articles printed in every major news paper across the globe with the headline Figure skating judge Danilenko is a CORRUPT CHEATER who is happy to swing figure skating events for favours.

    This is because it is true. To my mind those cheating judges have done it before, they did it all the time leading to when they got caught. Do i think the wrap on the knuckles of a couple of years suspension made them all better and true? No i don't. I look at protocols in events where they judge and i see a few lone -2s in GOEs for skater who have received almost uniform +1s from the rest of the judging panel for the same element and i wonder to myself - is it that porven cheater giving those marks and i can't find out if it is but i know that not a single judge has been suspended since annonymous judging, and that makes me nervous.

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 12-13-2006 at 06:06 AM.

  12. #12
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Seanibu - If you believe in the sanctity of the judges then you should stand by your convictions. Please understand, it won't change mine.

    Figure Skating should be judged as it is in Boxing. Two judges and a Referee.

    Joe

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    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    Is there such a limited number of judges that they need to bring back cheaters? Or is this the ISU trying to be diplomatic with other federattions? Given Three year suspensions doesn't encourage people to have faith in the sport.

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    Thanks, antman and enlight. I think you saw the point of my post, and seanibu did not. Seanibu, I think you are very naive if you think, like Candide, that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.

    I have looked at the protocols and studied the GOEs and PCS scores, and have been outraged at what I have found. It is obvious to me that the judges are forming alliances and they are working together to influence the outcome of competitions.

    Check out the Junior Grand Prix protocols and you will see what I mean. In the JGP, there is no secret judging or random selection. Judge #1 on the protocol is the same Judge #1 in the panel of officials. You can see exactly how each judged placed a skater in relation to the other skaters, and for one skater, how each judge placed the skater in relation to how other judges placed them.

    Judges blatantly score skaters from their own federation ahead of other skaters, even ones of obviously superior quality. Judges from the same region place the skaters in similar patterns.

    The only thing the ISU dings judges for is not marking within the statistical range. That is the reason why the scores are so uniform, and which has caused criticism of CoP (e.g., if a skater gets a 6.25 in SS, then all the other scores are apt to be within 1.00 of that number, even though the skating skills are good, but transitions and interpretation are not good at all). But there doesn't seem to be any check at all for collusion (shared patters of judging, especially when it runs counter to the actual performances).

    It is happening, and it is only going to get worse.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Is this the same poster who just told off chuckm?

    Maybe it is best for all of us to stop kicking each other out of threads or discussions and leave that kind of decision to our gentle mods.
    Yep, no apologies, when someone is condescending to me I'll give it right back. And that is constantly what I say when others are doing it, so don't throw "name calling" into the mix, and I would have never been offended. But I can see by a latter post, the name calling is still going on - so ST.

    I agree, but sometimes it is hard when it is you that is being treated poorly and without respect. I should have made it "anonymous" response eh?

    And I still don't see how it MAKES IT EASIER. That makes no sense still. It is just as easy as before, just as easy as before. But the public damage is lessend. Case closed IMO. And I respect anyone who respected mine as just a difference of opinion.

    eta, I think there is a big problem with having difference of opinion as well as personal impression. I did that when I first started, saying things like "you have got to be kidding me" or just being condescending in general. It is pointless and childish to resort to name calling or a belittling tone, and for some reason it was noticed once I responded to someone using that tone with me, I used the same tone yet I was once again the target. Whatever. Forest and the trees. Depends where you decide to focus I 'spose.

    OAO
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 12-13-2006 at 11:32 AM.

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