Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise
Ok so Domnina & Shabalin are becoming the next Russian ice dancing stars.
I don't watch much ice dancing so I really don't have a clue about them and my question is around their rapid rise to higher levels of ice dancing. Do people who follow ice dancing closely feel that they have really improved as much as their results show? I tend to only watch the Kerrs (because of national bias and because I have loved almost all of their programs) but because I've watched them I've tended to watch the rest of the skaters in their group. During the reign of Navka & Kostomarov, Dom&Sha were often in the same group as the Kerrs and seemed to be at a pretty similar level to them, albeit with slightly stronger basics. Since those times the kerrs have improved an awful lot and climbed steadily in the world and European rankings each season. Dom & Sha seemed to be progressing at a similar rate as the Kerrs. Suddenly Nav&Kos retire and Dom&Sha are leap frogging over skaters who have previously not been within reach like Delobel & Schoenfelder and now they're striking distance from Dubreuil & Lauzon.
So my question to the more knowledgeable is - have Dom&Sha really improved that much in one season or is there an element of Russian Politicking to get them boosted up so that Russia actually has an ice dance team that can compete for the podium at worlds. Have they improved so much more than the Kerrs?
What would the Kerrs have to do in terms of improvements to really start pushing towards being podium contenders? The move to Platov seems like a good start - training in the US where there is more visibility for them (compared to Murrayfield and Deeside!). Getting a good renowned Russian coach to mould them into the style of the Russians may help their placements on the world stage. Politically probably a good move to have a Russian coach too? Any thoughts?
When the Kerrs skated at their first Worlds in 2004, they were in 15th place, and DomShabs were in 10th (DomShabs had skated in their first Worlds in 2003, and were 15th). So right from the get-go, DomShabs were several places away from the Kerrs.
At 2005 Worlds, the Kerrs had moved up to 12th and the Kerrs to 8th.
At the Olympics, the Kerrs were 10th and DomShabs 9th, as two retired teams (D/V and F-P/M had returned).
At 2006 Worlds, the Kerrs were in 11th and DomShabs in 7th.
The only time the Kerrs were close behind DomShabs was the Olympics, but never that close at Worlds.
The Kerrs will probably make the lower half of the top ten this year, but you can probably expect DomShabs to be on the podium or 4th.
The reality is that politics still rules in ice dance. The Russian federation is very powerful when it comes to politics. I'm not sure a Russian coach would make a difference for the Kerrs.
Gadfly and Bon Vivant
I don't watch much ice dance but when I do I enjoy the French team a lot more than most other teams and from comments on people who do follow dance it seems I'm not the only one who thinks that. But they keep missing the podium and it seems the new Russian number ones are going to leap frog past them now.
In another thread there was a reference to some sort of back story with coaches that I don't know about, could anyone clarify just what's going on there?
It's all about the program. Dom/Shabs have the required amount of anst. Del/Shoe have Bonnie and Clyde. Now, why on earth they didn't do more of a The Avengers type program? Doesn't she remind you a bit of Emma Peel a/k/a Diana Rigg in that black outfit? see
There's no angst in D/L's program. If angst was a requirement, D/L should be well down the pike.
I've wondered too about the sudden rise of Dom/Shabs. I have two thoughts about it.
1. I was really impressed with their programs and skating last season. At Olympics and Worlds, I felt they were definitely a cut above all the other second-ranked teams. It could be that other people had the same feeling, but it's only now starting to translate into better marks and placements.
2. I also do feel that the Russian Federation is partly responsible for their great results this year. Because otherwise, I can't account for them moving ahead of both Delobel/Schoenfelder *and* Belbin/Agosto. That's a big jump in the world of ice dance, and I feel like there's got to be some kind of political aspect to it. Not only that, but the second Russian team, Khoklova/Novitski, are also now getting placed more highly than before, for reasons that are unclear to me. It all points to some back-door deals.
What it points to is that DomShabs are being primed to become the 2010 OGM winners, with Khokholova/Novitski on the podium as well. That is to make up for the fact that there probably will be no Russian medalists in Ladies, Pairs and Men (unless Plushenko is back---and that is far from certain).
I believe that DomShabs is already being poised to become the 2008 World Champions, and they will own that title as long as they choose to stay in the game. Teams like Dubreiul/Lauzon, who are staying in to win that elusive World Championship and OGM are deluded if they think they have any chance at all. Denkova/Staviiski are smart to move on after this season, and they are younger than D/L.
If this is true, why do we watch this "sport"? And why does the dance world have to pay the price of no Russians winning in any other discipline?
Originally Posted by chuckm
2010 in Canada and V/M not vying for the podium? Ooooh...those Canadian dance fans will NOT be happy.
V/M can vie for the remaining space on the podium (unless Russia #3 gets pushed hard as #1 and #2 are). They just won't have a shot at the top of it.
Somebody is a huge cynic. Please dont paint the future of ice dance in such a grim predetermined light.
Penny & Nick!
2004 ~ 14th, World Championships, Dortmund Germany
Originally Posted by chuckm
2004 ~ 10th, European Championships, Budapest Hungary
2005 ~ 12th, World Championships, Moscow, Russia
2005 ~ 8th, European Championhips, Torino, Italy
2006 ~ 11th, World Championships, Canada
2006 ~ 10th, Winter Olympics, Torino, Italy
2006 ~ 8th, European Championships, Lyon, France
Penny & Nick!
Originally Posted by temperboy28
Predetermined results and back room deals in figure skating???
Say t'ain't so !!!
It's only been like this from ..umh.....day 1......
I started watching this sport in the 1970's, when FS was just another front on which the Cold War was being waged.
Now we're a little less 'bloc'd' and a little more factionalized, but it's essentially the same thing.
I watch for the sake of the skating itself and pay only scant attention to scores or who wins and who doesn't, the medal/title distribution (sic) in FS will be at best questionable as long as this is a sport involving 'judges', and not determined by a clock.......
Last edited by Wolfgang; 12-19-2006 at 07:57 PM.
I predicted as much the end of last year with the retirement of N/K.
Sadly, their rise is the result largely of being pushed up the standings because they are now the top Russian couple. They have improved some, and are a decent team, but not to the extent, IMO that they should be suddenly beating teams they were not in the same league with last year. I totally agree with the poster who said they are being primed this season to either hit the podium or be 4th. Next season they will be at least challenging for the gold. By 2009 they will be unbeatable, like N/K (unfairly) were in the couple of seasons leading up to the Olympics.This is politicking at its worst.
Their programs this season are nothing special, certainly not a wow situation that would account for their sudden elevation.
OK so asking another question then, because i'm sure the Kerrs and Dom/Sha have been in the same group for the Free dance before now, or only been one spot ahead - have the russians usually done much better in the FD than in the CD and OD? I'm sure i had read results that had them at aroudn the same place - perhaps they used to be up until the final round?