Who do you consider the most overscored women singles skater in recent history? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Who do you consider the most overscored women singles skater in recent history?

Most overscored women singles skater in recent memory?


  • Total voters
    313

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Kwan was lucky because

She was born in America.

As far as ladies skating goes true. Not because of power and corruption, but because of the great program the U.S has to identify and develop ladies singles skaters.

She was labeled as a tragic heroine through the events surrounding 1994 olympics.

Next to no significance to her future career IMO.

When she was 15, every prominent US skater was gone.

Typical. After 80 Fratianne and Marie-Allen were gone. After 84 Sumners and Zayak were gone. After 88 Thomas, Chen, and Kadavy were gone. After 92 Trenary and Yamaguchi were gone, Harding and Kerrigan probably would been had there been no 94 Olympics.

When she was 15, the top of the world was Lulu (a relatively weak skater).

Very harsh statement. Lu Chen was a consistent medal winner at the World level for many years, medaling at every World or Olympic event she entered except 1 from the 1992 Worlds-1998 Olympics. That is not "relatively weak" for my money. In losing a heartbreaking 6-3 split to Kwan at the 96 Worlds in defence of her title she received two perfect 6.0s for presentation, Kwan threw in a 7th triple at the end(to Lu's 6) and also received two perfect 6.0s for artistry to narrowly defeat. Her technical skills, atleast the jumping aspect, was highly regarded from a young age, and her artistry became among the most revered as she got older.

Younger and stronger rivals have retired early (Lipinsky & Sarah Hughes)

Lipinski was a legitimate thorn in the side for Michelle. Hughes not so much, she only had 2 wins in the 15 GP, Natonal, or World level events both were in from 99-2003, this is excluding all the cheesefests which I dont recall of the top of my head, but each of which Kwan came out ahead in, probably 10 more wins for Michelle added to that. Hughes has never truly denied Kwan a victory, as the two times Hughes defeated Kwan, Kwan was 3rd at the event anyway.

The only real rival (Slutskaya) was rather inconsitent.

She was consistent enough to finish 2nd to Kwan 3 times at the World Championships, win 2 World titles, another World bronze(where Kwan also won gold), 2 Olympic medals, 4 GP finals-9 total GP final medals, 7 European titles-9 total European medals. She only failed to medal two times at any of those events from 1996-2006, a 4th at the 97 Worlds, where her free skate may have won overall gold without a fall in the short program; a 4th at the 98 GP final, a 5th at the 98 Olympics; and a 9th at the 2004 Worlds, just returning from her horrable illness, and courageous to even skate. Had it not been for Kwan, Irina would have been a 5-time World Champion. Granted as a partial Irina fan I would say I believe the 2000 and 2001 World titles were Irina's to win, but Michelle did her part by putting on an inspired performance, giving Irina no room for error, and Irina could not quite pull through each time.

No one did triple axels at that time.

Kristi Yamaguchi, the one who did face that situation, only won her events when Ito and Harding's triple axels ended on their romps. Not once did she win an event where either the skater did not fall on her triple axel, or wasnt out of contention after the short program. With the risk associated with the triple axel, if your main rivals have that jump, came higher likelihood your main rivals would literaly fall out of your path to victory. As Kwan's main rivals did not have that extremely high risk jump, the likelihood of them literaly falling out of her way, was much less likely.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
I am not a devoted Kwan fan by any means. I like Kwan, but being devoted to Irina as my favorite, it would be hard to develop into too enormous a fan of the skater who has done the most damage of anyone to Irina's career. I was just pointing out how I saw each of your arguments, and suming up how I felt they were unfair to Kwan is all.

Seeing as you choose to label me a devoted Kwan fan and stop there, rather then pointing out how any of my responses to your points were wrong, only suggests you see that my responses to each of your points were in fact right and want to avoid them. :agree:
 

axelheart

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Above all, Kwan was lucky because CoP was not in place earlier.

Maybe slutskayafan doesn't like that I said Slutskaya was inconsitent.
One reason is that under the old system, Kwan's rivals couldn't beat her without doing harder jumps. Slutskaya needed 3Lz-3Lo AND 3S+3Lo to cope with Kwan's 3Lz+2T and 3T+3T. If Slutskaya misses one of them, she lost. This is a very unequal "competition". One thing good about CoP is that if you have high base-valued programs, you are allowed to make a bit of mistakes.

Kwan was indeed very lucky but not lucky enough to win an olympic gold.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
I dont know that Slutskaya always needed to land clearly more jump content to beat Kwan. At the 2000 Worlds in the long program Slutskaya only completed 6 triples, and no triple-triples, and popped one jump wide open and aborted the choreography to do a triple almost directly after; Kwan completed 7 triples, and 1 triple-triple. Kwan still won only a 7-2 split and it was closer then it seemed. On the technical mark Slutskaya won 5 judges, Kwan 4. On the presentation mark Slutskaya won 2 judges, tied 1 judge, and Kwan won 6. At the 2001 GP final Michelle completed 5 triples in the final free skate, Irina also 5 and took a hard fall early, and Irina won a 6-1 judges split to win. At the 2002 GP final the final free skate was so controversial I wont even mention it, but in the 1st free skate Irina with her 4 clean triples won a unaminous decision over Kwan who completed 5 triples. At the 2002 Worlds, in the free skate, both skate clean 6 triple programs, with no triples-triples, 2 triple lutzes, and Slutskaya won on a 6-3 split.

I dont agree it was set in stone one had to do clearly more in terms of jump content to win, and that the judges gave Kwan that big advantage under the old system as you say.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Just for the record, I believe Michelle won the only event ever in which two other skaters did successful triple Axels.

About luck -- you have to have it to win. At 2000 worlds Michelle not only needed to win the LP, but she also needed for Slutskaya (skating last) to beat Butryskaya for second. As luck would have it, that's just what happened.

Axelheart is right about Kwan running out of luck at the 2002 Olympics. Conceding first in the LP to Sarah's skate-of-a-lifetime, Kwan still would have won the gold if a majority of the judges had placed her OK-but-flawed performance ahead of Slutkaya's uninspired one for second (it was a five-four split).

Who will get lucky in the coming World championship at Tokyo?

(BTW, Axelheart, I see you are posting from the same IP as Satorare. Friends?)
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Actually it was a 6-3 split for 2nd in the free skate between Kwan and Slutskaya at the 2002 Olympics. I thought 2nd in the free skate was a close call. Kwan fell and Irina did not. Kwan had 5 totaly clean triples, Slutskaya only 4, both stood up 6 triples(Kwan two footed one, Slutskaya two footed one and had a wild illusion turn type finish on one). Slutskaya was slow for her standards, Kwan was cautious for her standards. Hughes should have probably had all first place votes in the free skate, that she didnt shows the judges were hesitant about giving her the gold.

I would suggest perhaps, albeit as an admitedly biased Slutskaya fan, that Irina may feel she could have won the short program, which would have given her the gold as well. The 2 seasons leading up until that point Irina had always won the short when she skated cleanly, even many times Kwan had, often by clear margins. Yet in SLC that was not the case as she lost a 5-4 split in the short, strongly contradicting what had happened between Kwan and Slutskaya in short program for those 2 seasons. Whether you agree or disagree, I do think that threw Irina off in both SLC and Turin, in Turin she must have been shocked to not win the short program with a clean performance when all year her short program scores were so much higher then the others. In fact her Turin short program was about 4 points lower then her PB for the year, which must have burned a bit, when all other contenders set a big new season PB. So I honestly think in both SLC and Turin, Irina may have been thrown off by not winning the short, whether you agree or not, that may have been her feelings.

In any case both the short and free were very close between Kwan and Slutskaya, 1 or 2 judges difference, and could have flipped the overall result away from a Hughes win. On top of both of those things Hughes was only 4th in the short on a 5-4 split over Butyrskaya which also would have lost her the gold medal. Hughes even won the free skate on only a 5-4 split herself over Slutskaya(although I admit that wasnt right, if somebody else had won the gold by virtue of winning the free skate that would have been plain wrong).
 
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attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
...
I would suggest perhaps, albeit as an admitedly biased Slutskaya fan, that Irina may feel she could have won the short program, which would have given her the gold as well. The 2 seasons leading up until that point Irina had always won the short when she skated cleanly, even many times Kwan had, often by clear margins. Yet in SLC that was not the case as she lost a 5-4 split in the short, strongly contradicting what had happened between Kwan and Slutskaya in short program for those 2 seasons. ...

I can understand Irina's feelings after the SP in Torino, but I am not sure about SLC. After all, she had come back in the FS strongly at Skate Canada after a bad SP; she also had been 1st after the SP at Worlds in '01 (and she was 2nd in the SP at Worlds in '00) -- but she couldn't hold it together in the FS at those events. So, I don't think being second in the SP would have had the same effect on her as it did later. (I'm a biased Kwaniac, but I wish Irina had been in 1st after the SP -- Michelle had a habit of really great FS, when she was behind in the SP)
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Obviously I can take it, as I started a whole thread about how I can't stand the Zhang kid. So I'll say it here, too. She is the most overscored lady (er... child? toddler?) in recent history. 20+ points ahead of all the rest? She's consistant and flexible but she's not THAT great.

FWIW, Sasha would be my second pick.

At this point in time, Caroline is one of the best female skaters at any level. From my assessment at seeing her in Spokane, she is capable of beating any of our National medalists. Her artistry is fully developed. She, like Alissa, casts an aura over the ice the minute she takes her pose. Her spins and spirals are par excellent. If she continues to develop her technical (jumps) arsenal, she will be a contender in 2010! (If you had seen the junior comps in Spokane, you would fully understand why USFS is including these junior skaters in the Spring Cheese Fest. At Spokane, I looked upon them, not as future stars, but present stars. Caroline and Mirai were certainly treated as stars at the Nationals Exhibition telecast! Caroline's exhibition was the highlight of that show!):bow:
 
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gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
I voted other, because I don't think that the skaters in the poll were continuosly overscored. Well, it happened that Debi was overscored at the 1988 Olympics and Sasha at the 2006 Worlds. But it was just in one event.

Michelle Kwan overscored? I don't think so!!! Same with Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Kimmie, Carolina...

For other I mean Sarah Hughes. I agree that she was the rightfull winner of the 2002 Olympics LP, but she was overscored at the 1999, 2000 and 2001 Worlds, IMHO.
 
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doubleaxel

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
At this point in time, Caroline is one of the best female skaters at any level. From my assessment at seeing her in Spokane, she is capable of beating any of our National medalists. Her artistry is fully developed. She, like Alissa, casts an aura over the ice the minute she takes her pose. Her spins and spirals are par excellent. If she continues to develop her technical (jumps) arsenal, she will be a contender in 2010! (If you had seen the junior comps in Spokane, you would fully understand why USFS is including these junior skaters in the Spring Cheese Fest. At Spokane, I looked upon them, not as future stars, but present stars. Caroline and Mirai were certainly treated as stars at the Nationals Exhibition telecast! Caroline's exhibition was the highlight of that show!):bow:

I wouldn't put Caroline as one of THE best in the World right now. She's got a jumping technique to fix. Her spins and spirals, I agree, are spectacular, but her artistry... is definitely NOT "fully developed". Maybe the concept of artistry is just a matter of personal preference, but I don't find a lot of expression and lyrical movements (look at Yu-na and Sasha to see what I mean) in Caroline's skating. Here, I'll sum up her this year's Worlds LP. To me, it was.. high kick-flutz jump-scary high kick-jump-jump-spin-jump-spiral!-scary high kick-jump-spin-jump-contortionist spin-end. That was it. No expression whatsoever. At Worlds, she had a completely blank expression during her LP, and I was disappointed that she seemed to almost ignore the music. Or maybe that's just her own special style of skating. I don't know.

But - Caroline is not THAT overscored. She has the talent and the ability, but she has to learn how to use it properly. I wouldn't be spending so much time on developing those contortionist spin positions if I were her - her jumping technique could use some improvement. Sasha has a brilliant spiral & spins, too (yet she tends to bomb one or two of the LP jump passes)!

Anyhow: I believe Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes, and Michelle Kwan are overscored. Kwan is not severely overscored like the other two, but the amount of times that spectators refer to her as the "legend" leaves me dazed. Her SLC Fields of Gold was a pretty performance, yes, but it wasn't a MASTERPIECE as many people tend to claim. Kwan just skated around, did a couple of triples, a few of her generic, awkward 'backward spiral into spin' moves, a hydroblade, and TA-DA!. Am I missing something? :think:

I won't even get into Sarah Hughes (dancing horse on ice that carefully hid her underrotated flutzes in the corners so the judges couldn't notice). She's practically never landed a real triple jump in her life! And the only two international competitions she's won were Skate Canada and SLC. Completely accidentally. Everything about her makes me cringe, those underrotated triples in particular.

Tara, Tara... having fun while skating is great, of course, but oh my GOODNESS GRACIOUS! Most Pre-Juvenile girls nowadays have better artistry, extension, and edge quality than Tara Lipinski ever had. Her jumps practically don't leave the ice, and it seems as if she thought she was roller-skating in every performance. Tsk-tsk.

Looks like somebody's had some spare OGM's... :laugh:
 

mirai_asada

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
I think Yu-na Kim was overscored in her SP for the 2007 Worlds. She was wonderful but I don't think she should've gotten that high...
 

satorare

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
I think Yu-na Kim was overscored in her SP for the 2007 Worlds. She was wonderful but I don't think she should've gotten that high...

Yes, her LP was equally overmarked.
If every skater was properly marked, Kim should be the fifth behind Nakano.
 

dollee

Rinkside
Joined
May 24, 2007
I know some people are an anti-YuNa just because she is a rival of their idol.

I just don't want to hear them complaining, nitpicking and somtimes bashing on Yu-Na over and over again.
 
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