Sasha vs Kimmie

If Sasha Cohen and Kimmie Meissner were to face off, either at Worlds or at the US Nationals, and if both were to perform at their absolute best, who would come out on top?

I know this is a hypothetical question, but I ask because I want to figure out them how they compare to each other at their best. Does Kimmie already skate at a level that exceeds Sasha's skating at her best or can Sasha's most perfect program beat Kimmie?

Sasha would win.

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scorekeeper said:

Sasha would win.

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You really think so? Kimmie at her best has got two triple-triple combinations at her disposal. Sasha has neither. By virtue of those jumps alone, Kimmie's best would overtake Sasha's best all the time.

I just don't see what Sasha could do to surpass Kimmie jumpwise.

Both at their best? Kimmie. She has the two different 3-3 combinations plus a triple axel.

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dancindiva03 said:

Both at their best? Kimmie. She has the two different 3-3 combinations plus a triple axel.

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dancingdiva, I agree. I don't know why so many people are voting for Sasha. She really has no chance against Kimmie's best. For sentimental reasons perhaps ;-)

I dont know. I think Worlds last year was Kimmie's best and she scored almost a 130. However Sasha with the program she had last year can also score around a 130. Sasha would score higher in the short program, so I guess I go with Sasha. I have never seen Kimmie do all of a triple axel, and 2 triple-triples, all in the same program, so I wont consider that her best until she does all that in the same program.

I could go either way. It depends on what we mean by "best." If we are talking about their best in reality, rather than some kind of fantasy program, I think Kimmie's 2006 Worlds performance is pretty close to her "best." She got 187.87 points. But her short program could have been a little higher, so maybe her best is around 190. (If she really does come out with a triple Axel, that will be another story.)

Realistically and without wishful thinking, Sasha's "best" includes at least one fall. She got 183.36 at the Olympics with one fall and one almost fall, and she got 185.98 at 2005 Worlds with one almost fall. (She does have a 197 point performance in the experimental season of the CoP, but I'm not counting that.)

If Sasha could stay on her feet I think her presentation scores would balance Kimmies triple-triples, just going by the points.

Whose skating you enjoy more, of course that is a matter of personal preference. :yes:

Mathman said:

Realistically and without wishful thinking, Sasha's "best" includes at least one fall.

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Aw, c'mon, MM - that wasn't the question. If Sasha skated her "absolute best," she wouldn't fall! It's not like she has *never* done an LP w/o falls. (I posted the list recently in some other thread.) Now if you're talking about 2-footed jumps, OK. I don't know that she's ever done an LP w/o those - but that's a "minor, minor, minor, minor" flaw, to quote Uncle Dick.

Spun Silver said:

Aw, c'mon, MM - that wasn't the question. If Sasha skated her "absolute best," she wouldn't fall! It's not like she has *never* done an LP w/o falls. (I posted the list recently in some other thread.) Now if you're talking about 2-footed jumps, OK. I don't know that she's ever done an LP w/o those - but that's a "minor, minor, minor, minor" flaw, to quote Uncle Dick.

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To be fair, Spun Silver, the question is about Sasha's best and not about the imaginary best Sasha has never been able to achieve.

And yes, during major competitions such as Worlds and Nationals only.

No fall here - probably my favorite of her major performances (is GPF major enough? she won in Dec 02). There's a popped jump but also 6 landed triples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ec1QxZS9hg

Mathman said:

I could go either way. It depends on what we mean by "best." If we are talking about their best in reality, rather than some kind of fantasy program, I think Kimmie's 2006 Worlds performance is pretty close to her "best." She got 187.87 points. But her short program could have been a little higher, so maybe her best is around 190. (If she really does come out with a triple Axel, that will be another story.)

Realistically and without wishful thinking, Sasha's "best" includes at least one fall. She got 183.36 at the Olympics with one fall and one almost fall, and she got 185.98 at 2005 Worlds with one almost fall. (She does have a 197 point performance in the experimental season of the CoP, but I'm not counting that.)

If Sasha could stay on her feet I think her presentation scores would balance Kimmies triple-triples, just going by the points.

Whose skating you enjoy more, of course that is a matter of personal preference. :yes:

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I may be a partial Sasha fan but I am going to have to vehemently disagree with what you are saying here.

Remember at the Olympics Shizuka had a 191.34 total and she not only did not do a triple-triple in either short or long, which she has shown she is capable of doing them, but did not even do a totally clean long, she doubled her triple loop, a major error. She scored a 125.32 in the long even with a doubled triple loop. Probably with a well done triple loop she would have been around 130 in the long, and 196 overall, again this is without even doing a single triple-triple. Shizuka has also done a triple-triple in the short, and in practice was nailing two triple-triples in her long skate, something she has done in the past. If Shizuka turns her opening triple lutz-double loop to a triple lutz-triple toe that is 2.5 points in base value more, her triple sal-double toe to the triple sal-triple toe-double loop she was hitting in practice easily and did at the 2004 Worlds another 4.2 points in base value. However her last triple sal-double toe at the end would need to be changed to a double axel which would drop 4.4 points in base value. She then adds a double toe onto the end of another jump to fill the 3rd combo quoto and adds another 1.3 in base value(unless it is done later then 1.4). She gains a total of 3.6 in base value with a program she was doing consistently well in practice according to reports, and that she also did at the 2004 Worlds as far as the jumps she would do. She also has done a triple lutz-triple toe in the short program before. That would be another 2.7 points in base value. So she was capable of a long program in the 133 range, and a short program in the 69 range, and a total score in the 202 range if she did all the jumps she has done before in competition, was doing in practice, with the same quality performances she gave otherwise and how they were scored.

Slutskaya's performances at the Olympics were just a big dissapointment from start to finish pretty much. She does though have a PB of 70.22 in the short. Her free skate at the 2005 Worlds was 130.10 with a triple loop discounted since she had done it 3 times. Replace that with a 2nd triple flip or a 2nd triple lutz instead and she is around a 136. So Slutskaya's hypothetical realistic best could be in the 206 range.

So basicaly Arakawa skating her best can definitely score 200 or higher, at the Olympics she could have scored 196 total even without a triple-triple as well. Slutskaya can be even higher then that realisticaly if she were to be skating at her best in both short and long. At the very least both have 200 plus potential to be sure. So if the best Meissner can do skating 2 of her realistic best performances is 190 type score, why dont you believe Cohen skating her best would beat that. Are you saying Cohen's realistic best is double digits less then Arakawa and Slutskaya for example? Since if Meissner's best performances only is worth 190 total in short and long, Arakawa and Slutskaya at their best are beating Meissner by double digit point total with their best performances in both short and long.

Temperboy, don't you get it? Cohen has been booted out of the competitive skating world by most of the posters on this board. Done, old, over the hill, not missed, shouldn't even be discussed, her coffin is already ordered. NOT lol.

I think I had a different interpretation of what was meant by a skater's "best" performance. I agree that Shizuka could beat Kimmie if Kimmie got 190 points and if Shizuka did all the things that Temperboy suggested and ended up with 200 points.

Yes, I agree that Slutskaya's 2005 Worlds skate, corrected for the extra loop, would blow away Kimmie, Shizuka and for that matter Sasha.

I'm not too sure what the logic is here. Arakawa and Slutskaya (by including triple-triple combinations) are realistically capable of scoring 200 points, therefore Sasha is, too?

NB: I voted for Sasha, LOL (as did 73% of the people on this poll).

Spun Silver said:

No fall here - probably my favorite of her major performances (is GPF major enough? she won in Dec 02). There's a popped jump but also 6 landed triples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ec1QxZS9hg

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Thanks for posting that

I think a performance like that puts the question in perspective. If we take that program as Sasha's best, and compare it to Kimmie's 2006 Worlds performance, who wins under the CoP?

Kimmie did 7 triples including two triple-triple combos (3F+3T and 3Lz+3T) and her seventh jumping pass was 2A+2T+2Lo. Sasha omitted her planned triple-triple and singled her loop, giving up about 7 points off her intended base scores.

Kimmie's scores were 69.47 + 60.23 = 129.70.

In order to beat that, Sasha would essentially have to reverse the tech and componment scores, getting something like 60 + 70 = 130.

To get 70 points for PCSs, Sasha would have to get straight 8.75s across the board. If anyone can do that, Sasha can. (But I don't think anyone ever has -- Slutskaya got 66 in PCSs for at 2005 Worlds for a rock-em, sock-em program that took the roof off the place. Arakawa got 63 for her exquisite performance at the Olympics.)

Bottom line, I think Sasha would have to skate cleanly AND deliver a program of mesmerizing beauty to beat Kimmie's absolute best.

On the other hand, Kimmie has skated her "best" only once in her life, and none of her other performances would have beaten even a run-of-the-mill sasha program. (But on the third hand, Kimmie has substantially improved her presentation skills this season...)

Now that we've settled that, let's do Mao versus Michelle.

krenseby said:

and if both were to perform at their absolute best, who would come out on top?

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This is what made me vote for SC. Very contingent on this comment.In a "real world scenario" I reality I think Sasha would succumb to her "Demons" and Kimmie would not. Also Kimmie has grown IMO. So now days, Kimmie...

BUT

Really, the sheer fact that if Sasha had a clean perfect prog it would put the Judges into shock and they would inflate the PCS to the point it would pass Kimmie by very little. Sasha would get the 8.75s + due to amazement and utter joy that "it happened." Judges and fans have waited and longed for this so much.... Sasha is already a gorgeous skater, her lines are exquisite, if she nails her 3x3 etc and gets the marks for skill, pres, etc.... I mean that is practically unbeatable. I think it would take 2 3a s to conquer a perfect Sasha. But that is the whole ting right there, "a perfect Sasha." ???

At current IMO a perfect Mao could beet a perfect Sasha, not much else.JMO

Mathman said:

Now that we've settled that, let's do Mao versus Michelle.

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Feeling daring are you???? I wouldn't say nut'ten on that one!

Mathman said:

I think I had a different interpretation of what was meant by a skater's "best" performance. I agree that Shizuka could beat Kimmie if Kimmie got 190 points and if Shizuka did all the things that Temperboy suggested and ended up with 200 points.

Yes, I agree that Slutskaya's 2005 Worlds skate, corrected for the extra loop, would blow away Kimmie, Shizuka and for that matter Sasha.

I'm not too sure what the logic is here. Arakawa and Slutskaya (by including triple-triple combinations) are realistically capable of scoring 200 points, therefore Sasha is, too?

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Ok even ignore the triple-triples I added that Shizuka can do. With only the doubled triple loop mistake made a triple instead Shizuka scores a 196 total at the Olympics with NO triple-triples at all, none in short, none in long, zippo, just clean performances with no triple-triples. So Shizuka with no triple-triples is 6 points, a big margin still, over your 190 estimate for Meissner. So if Shizuka with no triple-triples at all in either short or long can beat Meissner's realistic best by a whopping 6 points, how on earth could Sasha not beat her almost for sure then? That is basicaly like saying Sasha skating her realistic best at the Olympics would have still been blown away by Arakawa if Arakawa had just not doubled her triple loop, even with no triple-triple attempts by her still.

Or if you want to take Irina's skate at the 2005 Worlds, turn the triple lutz-triple loop into a triple lutz-double loop, she actually gets 1.5 more points this way since her triple loop worth 5 points later got none as it was, she gets those 5 and only loses 3.5 turning the triple lutz-triple loop to a triple lutz-double loop. So now Irina is up to around a 132 long, with no triple-triple attempts. Also if you then turn the 3rd(now 2nd)triple loop to a triple lutz instead which makes more sense since that is what she was always doing before COP and gets more points anyway you add another 1 point to get a 133 total with no triple-triple attempts. That combined with the fact she regularly gets 66-70 in the short with no triple-triple attempt, Irina needs no triple-triple to reach 200 or beyond with her realistic best, even without the triple-triples.

So basicaly what I am saying is do you believe Slutskaya and even Arakawa at their realistic best with NO triple-triples would blow away Cohen's realistic best too, since they would your 190 realistic best estimate for Meissner. I find that hard to believe, yet Slutskaya and Arakawa's realistic best blows away the 190 estimate you gave for Meissner, even with NO triple-triples done by either, just c clean performances with no triple-triples I am now referring to. That is why using Arakawa and Slutskaya are good estimates, and since I realize their triple-triples could be construed as ways to give them more scoring potential, I just gave examples wiping out those triple-triples and still came up with that.

Well, the first thing is -- I agree with your conclusion. I think Sasha would win if she skated "her best," if by that we mean "better than she ever actually skated in her life."

Sasha's highest score (not counting the experimental 2003 season) was 124.61 points at 2005 Worlds. She made a couple of minor mistakes. Her PCSs were in the low eights for a PCS total score of 62.12.

For "Sasha's dream program," I think her Olympic program is a good guide. (We won't say anything silly like, give her a quad Salchow).

3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 3F+2T, 3T+3S seq, 2A, 3S. That's a base value of 40.1, including second half bonuses. Her non-jump elements were three level 4 spins and one level three, level two footwork and level four spiral, for 17.4 more points, giving her a base value of 57.5. If she really skated the performance of her life she could easily average, say, an extra half point in GOE (including factoring) for each of the elements (she got +2 on her spiral alone), which could bring her up close to the 65 mark in total tech score.

This leaves her with about 5 points to make up in PCSs. (Her actual best of 62.12 wouldn't do it.)

Here I agree with SeaniBu. If Sasha did a technically ambitious program like that without error, and if in addition she skated like she did in the last 3 minutes of her Olympic program (instead of how she skated at worlds), the judges would do whatever was necessary to give her the victory. A bunch of 9's across the board.

I think Kimmie benefitted in the same way at Worlds. The judges decided that she skated the best and deserved the title, so they gave her big scores to make sure the result came out the way they wanted.

So -- I'll go with Sasha, under this scenario. (Plus, as Slutskayafan mentioned, Sasha would probably have a cushion from the short program.)

You are right that the judges probably inflated Kimmie's score at Worlds since they probably wanted to make sure that performance pushed her past Cohen, who was ahead of her overall coming in, since Cohen's tenative, wobbly, and error marred performance was so not worthy of the Championship after Meissner ripped through her performance. They also figured that even a good skate from Fumie who was left to skate, keeping in mind Fumie never does a triple-triple, is not something they would to keep Meissner from the title after she had ripped through an inspired performance with two triple-triples. So their score reflected that, and might have been inflated in some places. That is why I find it odd some people think a clean performance from Kimmie this year, even without the triple axel would get an even higher score. Competing with Asada, Kim, and Ando, unless they have all skated before her and none were as good as her performance, she would get a lower score at this years Worlds for the same kind of skate I predict. Especialy with Worlds in Japan and some desire to want the Japanese girls to come out on top probably.

If Sasha were to skate close to clean if not clean... and if Kimmie were to do the same... then Sasha'd still come out on top due to the second mark...

And if it were a fifth we'd all be drunk... (sorry, I couldn't resist...)