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Thread: I need help - Who were the inventors of FS elements

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    I need help - Who were the inventors of FS elements

    I would like to know who were the inventors of these moves

    -Spread Eagle
    -Death Drop
    -Stag Jump
    -Split Jump
    -Falling Leaf

    -Spiral (in general)
    -Charlotte
    -Fan Spiral

    -Broken Leg Spin
    -I Spin
    -Y Spin

    When skaters started to execute spirals and step sequences?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gio View Post
    I would like to know who were the inventors of these moves

    -Spread Eagle
    This is a very old move, it was definitely around in the 19th century and maybe even the 18th.

    -Charlotte
    Charlotte Oelschlagel
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Oelschlagel
    http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/p...al/index.shtml

    I'm not sure about the rest, but I think most of them originated in the early to mid 20th century.

    Y spin maybe in the 1980s, but I haven't seen enough earlier skating to say it didn't exist earlier.

    I spin, I don't think I'd seen in a full split with the leg in front before Sasha Cohen, but others, e.g., Rudy Galindo, had been doing similar moves with almost as much split before then.

    When skaters started to execute spirals and step sequences?
    Skaters have been doing sequences of steps for as long as there have been freestyle programs, in fact longer. And some may have been doing sequences of spirals almost as long.

    When did they become required elements? In the short program, step sequences were required from the very beginning, 1972-73. Spiral sequences for ladies beginning in 1988-89.

    In the long program, the "well-balanced program" definitions suggested those sequences beginning in the 1990s, but they weren't really required until the early 2000s, the last few years of the old judging system.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I would guess Toller Cranston for the broken leg spin (?)

    About "step sequences," I might be remembering it wrong, but it seems to me that in the past, footwork was incorporated into the program in small doses. Nowadays skaters come to a complete stop at the end of the rink and say, "OK, everybody, now I am going to do my FOOTWORK SEQUENCE....OK, it's over now, let's get back to the program." This seems like a new development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Nowadays skaters come to a complete stop at the end of the rink and say, "OK, everybody, now I am going to do my FOOTWORK SEQUENCE....OK, it's over now, let's get back to the program." This seems like a new development.
    It's not that new. Becoming more common, perhaps, for various reasons.

    You only see the stop at the end of the rink thing with straight-line sequences, and more likely if it's done along the midline than the diagonal. Sometimes you see circular or serpentine sequences started from a standstill, but more often there are preceding strokes for speed before the sequence actually starts.

    One reason for stopping at the beginning of a step sequence is to make it very clear where it begins, so that the judges would know when to start judging (and now, the callers to start identifying) the sequence as an element as opposed to just random connecting steps, and to make it very clear that the sequence did complete the full length of the ice (or a full circle). No skater would want to have their step sequence overlooked because it wasn't identifiable as such, or given a deduction because judges only saw part of the pattern, and that did, and does, sometimes happen with more seamlessly integrated sequences.

    Katarina Witt's SP step sequence from 1988 is one earlier example of a straight-line sequence that was clearly marked against the boards at the beginning and end.

    One that I loved was Sebastien Britten's 1994 short program, which he ended by splatting against the boards at the end. By the next year, though, that was illegal.

    I remember one not-televised sequence from a skater in the mid-90s in a program that was all about seamless integration of one movement into the next: yes, she briefly stopped skating at the end of the ice to signal the beginning of the sequence, but her upper body kept moving in a way that connected the skating before and after the stop.

    Nikolai Morozov's choreography for Alexei Yagudin often highlighted the straight-line step sequences with a stop at the beginning, and they were so successful for Yagudin that other skaters flocked to Morozov to design their step sequences or whole programs too, or just copied the technique on their own.

    With the new judging system, we're seeing a lot fewer serpentine and even circular sequences because 1) they take more time to complete especially with the complexity required for higher levels and 2) the straight-line sequences now tend to twist and turn in mini-serpentines now that it's important to show deeper edges.

    So we do see more straight-line sequences than we used to, and also skaters/choreographers may be even more motivated to make sure the beginning of the sequence is correctly identified by the callers.

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    Thank you gkelly and Mathman!! Very appreciated!!!
    Gkelly, I liked what have you written about the step sequences! It is very interesting. I have another question. It seems just to me or is true that the step sequence Midori Ito did at the 1988 Olympics in her SP was particularly difficult compared to the other ladies at that time?

    I liked very much the step sequence on just one foot that Irina Slutskaya did at the 2002 Olympics in her SP. Do you know if other skaters did also this kind of step sequences in the past? Unfortunately we won't see it anymore. Why COP doesn't reward it? Isn't it more difficult?
    Last edited by gio; 02-05-2007 at 03:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gio View Post
    I have another question. It seems just to me or is true that the step sequence Midori Ito did at the 1988 Olympics in her SP was particularly difficult compared to the other ladies at that time?
    I'd have to take another look at the programs to offer an opinion on that question. Give me a couple of days to get around to it.

    I liked very much the step sequence on just one foot that Irina Slutskaya did at the 2002 Olympics in her SP. Do you know if other skaters did also this kind of step sequences in the past?
    Examples of one-foot step sequences I can think of:

    David Liu, short program to "The Mission" that he used at 1991 and 1995 Worlds and possibly in the intervening years -- he also did a non-jump version of this program at in the Interpretive competition 1991 Skate Canada, and he had a different interpretive program to Gershwin tunes at 1992 Skate Canada that also included a one-foot step sequence

    Brian Boitano, "Elegy" program that he used in the exhibition at 1994 US Nationals and in some other shows and maybe pro competions around that time

    Alexander Abt, Boys II Men exhibition performed at 1995 Skate America and probably elsewhere

    Surya Bonaly, 1995-96 short program

    Dmitri Dmitrenko, 1997 short program to electronic music he helped compose, called the "Short Game Program" (this was a circular step sequence all on one foot), and I think he also had one-foot sequences in 1998 and/or 99

    Galina Maniachenko, several short programs including 2000-01

    Irina Slutskaya, as you mentioned

    Unfortunately we won't see it anymore. Why COP doesn't reward it? Isn't it more difficult?
    Just the fact of maintaining and regenerating speed without pushing to the other foot is difficult, and it's also difficult to change rotational direction on the same foot.

    These skills are specifically rewarded in the levels for ice dance step sequences, in which a one-foot section with at least two different kinds of one-foot turns for each partner adds to the level, and also in the synchronized twizzle sequences doing both twizzles without a change of foot and only one or two turns or edge changes in between can also add to the level. But not doing a whole step sequence on one foot, because that limits the number of other skills that could be included.

    The level features for singles (and pairs) step sequences don't specifically include extended sections on one foot as a feature.

    The features for singles step sequences are:

    1. Variety (complexity for Level 4) of turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
    2. 4 changes of skating or rotational direction
    3. Modest (full for Level 4) use of upper body movement
    4. Quick changes from steps to turns
    Staying only on one foot, it's possible to have 4 changes of direction and to have upper body movement.

    It's also possible achieve "variety" (3 different kinds) or "complexity" (4 different kinds) of turns, but there won't really be any steps at all, since steps involve changing foot. Maybe the initial push onto the foot that's going to be doing all the turns would count as one step, and a hop in the middle could count as another depending how that would be defined, but there would be no other opportunities to fill the variety of steps requirements without doing any chasses, cross steps, toe steps, mohawks, choctaws, etc.

    And of course it's impossible to show quick changes from steps to turns without taking any steps. :-)

    Also it's easier for the skater to meet rotation changing and upper body features if they change feet than if they don't, so there's no real incentive not to.

    If officials want to encourage one-foot footwork skills, which seems like a good idea to me, they could add it as an additional feature in a couple of possible ways:
    -Similar to the dance features, make it a feature to include a section on one foot that includes at least 2 different kinds of turns and at least 360 degrees of rotation in each direction
    -Make it a feature to cover half the length of the pattern on one foot (from the end to the blue line in a straight-line, or a full half circle in a circular sequence, and define it either of those ways for serpentine) -- then it would still be possible to show the variety/complexity of steps and/or the quick changes in the other half of the sequence to earn the first or fourth features
    -Make it a feature to do the whole sequence on one foot. Obviously that would preclude the features that include steps, but the difficulty of covering the whole ice would make up for it. Maybe it could count as one feature just to cover the whole ice on one foot, and an additional feature to cover the whole ice on one foot while including at least 4 or 5 different types of turns (threes, brackets, counters, rockers, twizzles -- could also include toe pirouettes and figures-style loops -- in the long program also one-foot single jumps such as loop, walley, one-foot salchow, one-foot axel, or inside axel)

    There used to be a feature about varying the speed (not counting stops) -- this is possible although difficult on one foot, so restoring that feature would give one-foot sequences another feature option to make up for the lack of steps.

    Looking at David Liu's one-foot sequences from the early 90s, he used such a good variety of skating skills just on one foot that there really should be a way to define the features so that he would have earned at least level 3 for those sequences, or could have done so with minor tweaking.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I would add Michelle Kwan's extended one foot spiral sequence in her 1998 East of Eden exhibition program. She goes from a forward change of edge spiral to a back spiral on the same foot, then ends with a little culicue as the spiral centers in. I thought that was outstanding.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Now that Caroline has named that spin position, "the pearl" could she be the youngest to do so?

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    I don't think anyone else is capable of doing "the pearl".

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    .

    One reason for stopping at the beginning of a step sequence is to make it very clear where it begins, so that the judges would know when to start judging (and now, the callers to start identifying) the sequence as an element as opposed to just random connecting steps, and to make it very clear that the sequence did complete the full length of the ice (or a full circle). No skater would want to have their step sequence overlooked because it wasn't identifiable as such, or given a deduction because judges only saw part of the pattern, and that did, and does, sometimes happen with more seamlessly integrated sequences.

    .
    Thanks for the explanation. I hate when the skaters stop before the step sequence and I was wondering why almost everybody is doing it. Now it makes sense.
    Last edited by amber68; 02-06-2007 at 07:46 AM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I can't help but think that body positions in figure skating were taken from dance movements, mostly ballet but a lot of character dancing, too. I don't think there was anything original in figure skating, but if so, pray name some.

    BTW. What is a crooked leg spin? Is it a sitsspin with the free leg on the side of the body (that's an old roller trick) or is it the attitude spin?

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I can't help but think that body positions in figure skating were taken from dance movements, mostly ballet but a lot of character dancing, too. I don't think there was anything original in figure skating, but if so, pray name some.
    Sitspin? Yeah, there are some kind of similar positions in some Russian folk dancing. But not so much the variation with the free leg crossed underneath.

    BTW. What is a crooked leg spin? Is it a sitsspin with the free leg on the side of the body (that's an old roller trick) or is it the attitude spin?
    You mean broken leg spin?
    http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_s_brokenleg.htm

    I have no idea whether it was first done on ice or roller skates, but it's definitely not a new move.

    OK, I watched the ladies short programs from 1988 Olympics (the ones shown by ABC, anyway). I would say that Ito's difficulty was not far and away above the rest of the ladies -- some of the others in the earlier group especially had similar content -- but she was certainly at the high end of the spectrum on difficulty and also on ice speed and foot quickness, so altogether I'd feel confident in saying she had the best step sequence of the ones I saw.

    Straight-line step sequence was required in the SP that year, and most of the ladies did stop at the end of the ice to set them up. So again, that isn't new.

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    Rabbit Tycoon dutchherder's Avatar
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    There's a book, Figure Skating: A History by James R. Hines, that has a lot of explanation of the origins of some moves.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I wonder how difficult it would be to judge a skater if he were to continuously do footwork interspersed with spins, jumps, and moves in field rather just stop and announce to the audience he shall now perform the requisite footwork?.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I wonder how difficult it would be to judge a skater if he were to continuously do footwork interspersed with spins, jumps, and moves in field rather just stop and announce to the audience he shall now perform the requisite footwork?
    He would get high scores for transitions. It would also have been rewarded under the old system.

    But if a step sequence is a required element, not doing a recognizable step sequence would merit a deduction. In the current long program well-balanced program rules, the numbers of each type of element are actually maximums rather than minimums, so there wouldn't be a deduction for not doing it, but that's 2-3 points, plus whatever positive GOEs the skater might have earned, left on the table.

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