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Thread: 4CCs Article Day 3

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    Keepin' it real gsk8's Avatar
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    News 4CCs Article Day 3

    The third day of the Four Continents Figure Skating Championships continued with the Free Dance and Men's Long program.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Another interesting read from GS correspondent EWalker.

    So, Lysacek double-footed his quad combination and put a hand down on his triple Axel. That alone could account for most of the difference between his scores in this competiton compared to Nationals (the rest reflecting the normally generous marks that the winners always receive at national championships).

    Not to open this can of worms again, but I was intrigued by this description of Lyysacek's choeography: "Lysacek also earned both the highest technical score and the highest component score of the competition with masculine choreography by Lori Nichol that he performed with surety and intensity."

    I am still trying to figure out what "masculine choreography" means. Philippe Candeloro beating on his chest as "George of the Jungle?"
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-10-2007 at 09:23 AM.

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    Thanks for the link, Paula.

    Mathman, I am as nonplussed you as regarding this phrase but I guess it all comes down to the sequins or lack thereof. And BTW, that can of worms never closed.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    And BTW, that can of worms never closed.
    ...and -on this board- it never will...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Another interesting read from GS correspondent EWalker.

    So, Lysacek double-footed his quad combination and put a hand down on his triple Axel. That alone could account for most of the difference between his scores in this competiton compared to Nationals
    Most of the difference!?!?! That is only about 2 points total, so now about 2 points out of 10 is most of the difference? Sorry but your collection of whacky statements about Lysacek really take the cake for me. Lets add up:

    1. Lysacek could have won SA with a clean short as a 80+ short for him is very realistic.

    2. Lysacek could have done better then bronze at Worlds last year with a clean short.

    3. Now a touchdown and a "slight two foot" accounts for most of a 10 point difference.

    I appreciate the humour you provide me as a reader though. The funniest thing of all is you give the impression of being serious.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 02-10-2007 at 01:09 PM.

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    Thanks for the report. Well I said after U.S Nationals Evan's 169 was a joke, and that he would only score 160 with the same skate internationaly. Well he had a 159 with only 2 points worth of mistakes so with the same skate as U.S Nationals he scores a 161, looks like I was right all along about what a joke Evan's U.S National score was as the same skate is only worth a 161 here in front of an international panel. Good to be proven right.

    As for Mathman, he is probably inventing an extra 6-7 points likely since he was saying at U.S Nationals that Evan's score was a right score when I said it wasnt, and so has to invent alot of points that dont exist to avoid being proven wrong, that is all.
    Last edited by temperboy28; 02-10-2007 at 01:19 PM.

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    I think what some of you are forgeting is this event was also in the United States. Part of the many disturbing trends of judging of recent times is an automatic elevation of scores in your own country. Not to the extent of your own Nationals championships, particularly when there are other motives at work, but still on a different scale then outside your own country. So Lysacek being a 169 for a clean performance with 1 quad at his U.S Nationals, down to a 161 for a clean performance with 1 quad at Four Continents in the United States likely is down further then that at Worlds which is not in the United States. Something to keep in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    I am still trying to figure out what "masculine choreography" means. Philippe Candeloro beating on his chest as "George of the Jungle?"

    No. Masculine choreography refers to an approach to body tension. Instead of being softer and balletic, it is more of a paso doble approach to movement. Does that make sense? I'm not saying balletic isn't masculine, but I would call it balletic. Evan was not balletic. His approach to choreography is a little more angular and presents a stronger picture. I hope that this helps...

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    Vancouver 2010, 247.23, Bronze
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    I've made a short video clip of Evan's 4CC LP's most questionable jumps. I can't see how his quad is 2-footed. His axels - are a different story. No, they are not 2-footed either, they are... well, watch.

    http://rapidshare.com/files/15938490/4CC_EL_LP.WMV.html

    I'd rather have the vid more SloMo, but with the converters I have, I can't.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21 View Post
    ...That is only about 2 points total, so now about 2 points out of 10 is most of the difference?
    Do your homework.

    It's a difference of 3.57 on the tech side alone.

    In addition, a pretty much clean program in Spokane versus a not quite so clean program in Colorado -- could that have accounted for, say, half of the four-point difference in PCSs (with the other 2 points reflecting the overall higher scores that we have come to expect at national championships)?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21 View Post
    1. Lysacek could have won SA with a clean short as a 80+ short for him is very realistic.
    What I actually said: "At Skate America Lysacek placed first in the long program. If he had won the short program, too, he would have won the whole thing."
    2. Lysacek could have done better then (sic) bronze at Worlds last year with a clean short.
    What I actually said: "He basically lost his shot at the championship when he finished 8th in the SP."
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-11-2007 at 06:25 AM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by temperboy28 View Post
    As for Mathman, he is probably inventing an extra 6-7 points likely since he was saying at U.S Nationals that Evan's score was a right score when I said it wasnt, and so has to invent alot of points that dont exist to avoid being proven wrong, that is all.
    What I actually said: "If you think 160 is about right by international standards and that skaters can expect about a 6% "patriotic bonus" on top of that, then Lysacek's actual score of 169 is just right."

    In other words, I was agreeing with you.

    But now I have to revise my first thought a little. Comparing the two programs, I think the U.S. Nationals LP was better than the Four Continents LP by about 5 points. The other 5 is due to run-of-the-mill score inflation that we always see at national, as opposed to international, contests.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-11-2007 at 06:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittycat26 View Post
    I think what some of you are forgeting is this event was also in the United States. Part of the many disturbing trends of judging of recent times is an automatic elevation of scores in your own country. Not to the extent of your own Nationals championships, particularly when there are other motives at work, but still on a different scale then outside your own country. So Lysacek being a 169 for a clean performance with 1 quad at his U.S Nationals, down to a 161 for a clean performance with 1 quad at Four Continents in the United States likely is down further then that at Worlds which is not in the United States. Something to keep in mind.
    I think his U.S. Nationals performance would be worth about 160 at Tokyo, his Four Continents performance a little less.

    All skaters have to "keep in mind" the vagaries of the judging.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EWalker View Post
    No. Masculine choreography refers to an approach to body tension. Instead of being softer and balletic, it is more of a paso doble approach to movement. Does that make sense? I'm not saying balletic isn't masculine, but I would call it balletic. Evan was not balletic. His approach to choreography is a little more angular and presents a stronger picture. I hope that this helps...
    Yes! that is a huge help. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Do your homework.

    It's a difference of 3.57 on the tech side alone.

    In addition, a pretty much clean program in Spokane versus a not quite so clean program in Colorado -- could that have accounted for, say, half of the four-point difference in PCSs (with the other 2 points reflecting the overall higher scores that we have come to expect at national championships)?
    Do your own homework, a slightly two footed jump and a hand down is supposed to be -1 per element. Evan usualy gets 0 on GOE internationaly on his solo triple axel, you sound like you are going by his U.S Nationals GOE on those jumps to come up with that GOE which is meaningless.

    As it turns out looking at the jump protocals Evan had a -1 on GOE on his triple axel, and actualy a +0.43 for his supposably two footed quad. So his score would have been a 160 minimum, or possably a 161-162 if he received very minor added GOE or PCS.

    You think you gain 4 points on PCS from a hand down on a jump, plus a slightly two footed landing? That is also a totaly unreasonable belief if you follow the pattern of PCS, at most you might lose 1 point total from both combined. Also Evan has never gone over 75 on PCS in the long program internationaly, his score here was right at his proven personal limit as well. Since his PCS was already equal to Jeff's, his PCS was already about as high as realistic for him to begin with.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 02-11-2007 at 10:52 AM.

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