4CCs Article Day 3 | Golden Skate

4CCs Article Day 3

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Another interesting read from GS correspondent EWalker. :clap:

So, Lysacek double-footed his quad combination and put a hand down on his triple Axel. That alone could account for most of the difference between his scores in this competiton compared to Nationals (the rest reflecting the normally generous marks that the winners always receive at national championships).

Not to open this can of worms again, but I was intrigued by this description of Lyysacek's choeography: "Lysacek also earned both the highest technical score and the highest component score of the competition with masculine choreography by Lori Nichol that he performed with surety and intensity."

I am still trying to figure out what "masculine choreography" means. Philippe Candeloro beating on his chest as "George of the Jungle?"
 
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yelyoh

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Thanks for the link, Paula.

Mathman, I am as nonplussed you as regarding this phrase but I guess it all comes down to the sequins or lack thereof. And BTW, that can of worms never closed.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Another interesting read from GS correspondent EWalker. :clap:

So, Lysacek double-footed his quad combination and put a hand down on his triple Axel. That alone could account for most of the difference between his scores in this competiton compared to Nationals

Most of the difference!?!?! That is only about 2 points total, so now about 2 points out of 10 is most of the difference? Sorry but your collection of whacky statements about Lysacek really take the cake for me. Lets add up:

1. Lysacek could have won SA with a clean short as a 80+ short for him is very realistic.

2. Lysacek could have done better then bronze at Worlds last year with a clean short.

3. Now a touchdown and a "slight two foot" accounts for most of a 10 point difference.

I appreciate the humour you provide me as a reader though. The funniest thing of all is you give the impression of being serious.
 
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temperboy28

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Thanks for the report. Well I said after U.S Nationals Evan's 169 was a joke, and that he would only score 160 with the same skate internationaly. Well he had a 159 with only 2 points worth of mistakes so with the same skate as U.S Nationals he scores a 161, looks like I was right all along about what a joke Evan's U.S National score was as the same skate is only worth a 161 here in front of an international panel. Good to be proven right. :rock:

As for Mathman, he is probably inventing an extra 6-7 points likely since he was saying at U.S Nationals that Evan's score was a right score when I said it wasnt, and so has to invent alot of points that dont exist to avoid being proven wrong, that is all.
 
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kittycat26

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
I think what some of you are forgeting is this event was also in the United States. Part of the many disturbing trends of judging of recent times is an automatic elevation of scores in your own country. Not to the extent of your own Nationals championships, particularly when there are other motives at work, but still on a different scale then outside your own country. So Lysacek being a 169 for a clean performance with 1 quad at his U.S Nationals, down to a 161 for a clean performance with 1 quad at Four Continents in the United States likely is down further then that at Worlds which is not in the United States. Something to keep in mind.
 

EWalker

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
I am still trying to figure out what "masculine choreography" means. Philippe Candeloro beating on his chest as "George of the Jungle?"


No. Masculine choreography refers to an approach to body tension. Instead of being softer and balletic, it is more of a paso doble approach to movement. Does that make sense? I'm not saying balletic isn't masculine, but I would call it balletic. Evan was not balletic. His approach to choreography is a little more angular and presents a stronger picture. I hope that this helps...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
...That is only about 2 points total, so now about 2 points out of 10 is most of the difference?
Do your homework.

It's a difference of 3.57 on the tech side alone.

In addition, a pretty much clean program in Spokane versus a not quite so clean program in Colorado -- could that have accounted for, say, half of the four-point difference in PCSs (with the other 2 points reflecting the overall higher scores that we have come to expect at national championships)?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
1. Lysacek could have won SA with a clean short as a 80+ short for him is very realistic.
What I actually said: "At Skate America Lysacek placed first in the long program. If he had won the short program, too, he would have won the whole thing."
2. Lysacek could have done better then (sic) bronze at Worlds last year with a clean short.
What I actually said: "He basically lost his shot at the championship when he finished 8th in the SP."
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
As for Mathman, he is probably inventing an extra 6-7 points likely since he was saying at U.S Nationals that Evan's score was a right score when I said it wasnt, and so has to invent alot of points that dont exist to avoid being proven wrong, that is all.
What I actually said: "If you think 160 is about right by international standards and that skaters can expect about a 6% "patriotic bonus" on top of that, then Lysacek's actual score of 169 is just right."

In other words, I was agreeing with you.

But now I have to revise my first thought a little. Comparing the two programs, I think the U.S. Nationals LP was better than the Four Continents LP by about 5 points. The other 5 is due to run-of-the-mill score inflation that we always see at national, as opposed to international, contests.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think what some of you are forgeting is this event was also in the United States. Part of the many disturbing trends of judging of recent times is an automatic elevation of scores in your own country. Not to the extent of your own Nationals championships, particularly when there are other motives at work, but still on a different scale then outside your own country. So Lysacek being a 169 for a clean performance with 1 quad at his U.S Nationals, down to a 161 for a clean performance with 1 quad at Four Continents in the United States likely is down further then that at Worlds which is not in the United States. Something to keep in mind.
I think his U.S. Nationals performance would be worth about 160 at Tokyo, his Four Continents performance a little less.

All skaters have to "keep in mind" the vagaries of the judging.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No. Masculine choreography refers to an approach to body tension. Instead of being softer and balletic, it is more of a paso doble approach to movement. Does that make sense? I'm not saying balletic isn't masculine, but I would call it balletic. Evan was not balletic. His approach to choreography is a little more angular and presents a stronger picture. I hope that this helps...
Yes! that is a huge help. Thank you.
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Do your homework.

It's a difference of 3.57 on the tech side alone.

In addition, a pretty much clean program in Spokane versus a not quite so clean program in Colorado -- could that have accounted for, say, half of the four-point difference in PCSs (with the other 2 points reflecting the overall higher scores that we have come to expect at national championships)?

Do your own homework, a slightly two footed jump and a hand down is supposed to be -1 per element. Evan usualy gets 0 on GOE internationaly on his solo triple axel, you sound like you are going by his U.S Nationals GOE on those jumps to come up with that GOE which is meaningless.

As it turns out looking at the jump protocals Evan had a -1 on GOE on his triple axel, and actualy a +0.43 for his supposably two footed quad. So his score would have been a 160 minimum, or possably a 161-162 if he received very minor added GOE or PCS.

You think you gain 4 points on PCS from a hand down on a jump, plus a slightly two footed landing? That is also a totaly unreasonable belief if you follow the pattern of PCS, at most you might lose 1 point total from both combined. Also Evan has never gone over 75 on PCS in the long program internationaly, his score here was right at his proven personal limit as well. Since his PCS was already equal to Jeff's, his PCS was already about as high as realistic for him to begin with.
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
No. Masculine choreography refers to an approach to body tension. Instead of being softer and balletic, it is more of a paso doble approach to movement. Does that make sense? I'm not saying balletic isn't masculine, but I would call it balletic. Evan was not balletic. His approach to choreography is a little more angular and presents a stronger picture. I hope that this helps...

I see what you are saying, but why not just say 'angular', powerful, strong versus softer, willowy, lyrical....etc??? IF we did that, then any of these terms could apply to any skater easily (male or female) and we could get rid of some of the gender sterotypical nonsense and frankly, bias, and actually focus more on accuarate description of the style of each skater (man and woman).
 

kittycat26

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
I think his U.S. Nationals performance would be worth about 160 at Tokyo, his Four Continents performance a little less.

All skaters have to "keep in mind" the vagaries of the judging.

Well since the COP protocals which recently were made available show he did not receive a deduction for what was considered by the judges to be a clean quadruple toe loop, and received only a -1 on GOE for his triple axel I will have to disagree with you. As his score here would have been a 160 for a clean free skate delivery based on the recently revealed COP protocals, I do not believe it would be a 160 in Tokyo as the event would again be reduced from an event that is a global, not continental event, which is located in Asia not the United States. With a dropoff of a 169 to a 160 from U.S Nationals to a continental event still held in the United States, I would expect a further drop off at a world championship in Asia.

I do not find much vagaries in judging, I find them sadly predictable and flawed in their accessment of skaters, but maybe Worlds will bring some new hope and less cynicsm to how I view the current state of judging of the sport.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I guess I'm the only one who thinks that there might have been a difference in the quality of Lysacek's two performances.

At U.S. Nationals he got a +2 GOE for his quad/triple, and at Four Continents he only got a 0.43. Maybe it's home town judging. Then again, maybe one was better than the other. Evidently there was a question about how clean the landing was in Colorado -- maybe this was reflected in the judges' marks.

I probably shouldn't speculate, because I haven't seen the 4Cs performance yet. In Spokane he got some brownie points for giving a rousing performance and getting the crowd into it. (BTW, that is one of the criteria for PCSs under "performance." The wording is something like, "establishes an invisible bond with the audience." I love it. What other sport rewards the invisible?) :yes:
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
There were US judges at US nationals and ISU judges at 4CC. Of course there will be a dropoff from US Nationals to 4CC, as Nationals scores are always inflated. But why should there be a dropoff from 4CC to Worlds in Tokyo?

The ISU judges at 4CC for the men's event were from AUS, AUT, BUL, CAN, CHN, FIN, GER, ITA, JPN, SVK, SLO and USA and the technical panel was from BEL, JPN and SVK.

The judges for Worlds will include judges from BLR, BUL, CAN, FRA, GER, GBR, ISR, ROM, RUS, SRB, SVK, SLO, RSA, SWE, SUI and USA. Interesting, the Men's panel will have no judge from JPN (but possibly the Referee will be Japanese).

I don't see that there is going to be all that great a difference in the scores given for elements based on the composition of the judging panels from 4CC and Worlds.

A 10-point dropoff? Only if there is a big drop in performance level.
 
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