Re: Love the pictures
Torville and Dean
Gordeva and Grinkov
Michelle is certainly a legend in her own time.
However, I think to be truly considered legendary a person's whole body of work has to be taken into account.
Michelle isn't done yet, though she is definitely headed for legendary status. I also don't think winning the gold or not will have much barrying on it.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Who thinks Whitney's personal life messed up her chances also for legendary status?[/quote]
Her voice is legendary(undisputed) and will be seen as such when all is said and done, especially when she is gone. But will her career(singer/actress) be legendary when it is all said and done??? That's to be seen.
As for her personal problems, the fact that Whitney is still young and definitely still on the scene her problems have hurt her professionally and personally. The thing is can she get back because she still has time and much much more to contribute. However, like Whitney many other legendary singers have has to fight their personal demons(Garland, Joplin, Holliday, Morrison, Hendrix, ect...) and many have succom to them. I don't think it has made them less legendary but showed they were vulnerable humans like us all despite what aura we see them in or what pedestal the media has put them on. It is just a sad thing to see such a talent go like that.
Whitney still has time to right the ship personally and professionaly. I pray that she does get back and better than ever. She may have fallen from the princess pedastal she was put on at the beginning of her career, but she is human. She's made mistakes and is tyring to make ammends and I pulling for her.
Re: legend? or simply great?
To me, to be legendary, you must not only be a great skater, but you must have a Story! Anke's point is right on-people who are complex, having both bad and good sides, make better stories.
Any list of legendary skaters should also include Hans Brinker (a story you say? what else is a legend?), the NH man in the French and Indian War who skated away from the St. Francis Indians on Lake Champlain to escape and return home, Jackson Haines,Sonja Henie,Syers,Dick Button, Carol Heiss, G&G, Pakhomova &Gorshkov, the Protopopovs, Toller,
The legendary person needs to have a legend or a story to give us:
Jackson Haines who had to go Europe to succeed in carrying out his ideas and who created the boot attached to the blade.
The river of people who attended Pakhamova funeral, and their recreation of ice dancing as both art and sport
Gordeeva and Grinkov, their love story and how he died young.
Syers-how they had to create a ladies' event just to keep her from beating the men.
Toller-how he sued CBC and won, how he ran down the streets of NY in his firebird costume, his troubles with Chris Bowman and cocaine, how he threw away his special skates for figures into an open sewer/canal when he turned pro
Dick Button who succeeded on ice when young and hit his head on ice when old
There are of course other stories...
If Michelle becomes legendary (which as her career is not done yet, is moot) the only current story is that she was a great skater who could win any event except the Olympics.
Weirdly enough, wouldn't Tonya Harding be legendary at this point, accruing more stories by the minute. But not for her skating.
Re: legend? or simply great?
Funny you should mention Tonya. I was thinking the same thing as I read your post. She is probably the most known skater of today by everyone. Not just skating fans. Jay Leno for one just won't let anyone forget Tonya. She has many stories both good and bad. Legend? Maybe...
Re: Love the pictures
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Oedipus murdered his father and married his mother. Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain and Whitney Huston were druggies who allowed their addictions to destroy their lives.[/quote]
I don't see the resemblance between Oedipus who is actually a hero of a classic theatrical tragedy with Kurt Cobain, Whitney and others..The significance behind the legend of Oedipus has nothing to do with druggies or anything like that...But yes, I agree if he was a real person we could say he was "legendary" in some way..
Back to skating, I think everybody has a different opinion about what is a legend.I wouldnt' certainly consider Tonya Harding to be a legend, cause then we are going to an entirely different story.What different cultures and different people consider as "legendary"and which is the tru significance of the word that may vary ..
Re: Love the pictures
I guess I had in mind something like this, Alithia. According to Aristotle, a tragic hero's downfall should be due to a tragic flaw (hamartia), which promises to raise the champion to the heights, only to destroy him. For Oedipus (already a Greek legend of great antiquity at the time the material was used in the plays of Sophocles), the tragic flaw was his pride and arrogance in supposing that he could outwit his fate and outrun the path that the gods had laid out for him.
In the case of the rock singers, it was their pursuit of the Siren call and the false promises of mood altering drugs.
So I guess this is another vote for Tonya Harding. Her tragic flaw: she loved not wisely but too well.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To me "legendism" doesn't automatically include "halloism"; in fact a nice, clean, perfect life isn't necessary, not even desirable. Just the opposite: I claim that the majority of legends (in almost every area), were/are - although brilliant in their professions and/or charismatic, fascinating personalities - quite complex, complicated human beings and in many ways the "bad" and always controversal girls and guys. Or they led/lead turbulent and difficult lifes at least[/quote]
I won't automatically exlude anyone from legend status just because they happen to be some of the nicest guys/gals around. <span style="color:orange;font-size:medium;">Haloism and legendism are not mutally exclusive.</span>
OTOH<span style="color:orange;font-size:medium;">, controversy, and bad are not necessarily consistent with legendism</span>
Legends have complex life, becuase they are human, the halos are just added bonus for fans to enjoy.
I love Mulan, she is a legend, and what haloism. BTW, my friend named her daughter Mulan, (she is African America). Honestly, do you prefer Electra to Mulan?
Someone talked about the legends of Russell and Chamberlain. I asked some people who know a bit about these 2 basketball greats. It seems like Russell is the haloism guy.
<span style="color:orange;font-size:x-small;">"There are two types of superstars. One makes himself look good at the expense of the other guys on the floor. But there's another type who makes the players around him look better than they are, and that's the type Russell was." </span>
Chamberlain was the more complex/ bad one.
<span style="color:orange;font-size:x-small;">Dominating the game as few players in any sport ever have, Chamberlain seemed capable of scoring and rebounding at will, despite the double- and triple-teams and constant fouling tactics that opposing teams used to try to shut him down</span>
Unfortunately Chamberlain, the younger of the 2 died ~ 4 years ago? They both achieved living legend status.
Mathman, I see your point.Then we completely agree on that.
I think it's so hard though to define the term" legend", especially in skating..The Tonya Harding point is valid I think, but it would be more acceptable if she was let's say a skater at the caliber of Henie or Fleming or.. I'ts just so difficult to define..
That's why sometimes I prefer the term"greats" than "legends", but that would start another conversation.
What a great thread! Thanks to everyone for such interesting and thought provoking posts.