Judging controversy

gio · Feb 10, 2007

Is Emily Hughes really better than Joannie at PCS. The commentators at Eurosport expressed their surprise and were skeptic about the judges scores, saying that PCS judging isn't good.

Another thing!! I looked at the protocols and judges gave a +1 or even +2 GOE for the non completed combo of Emily. My question is, it is permitted to give such a high GOE for non completed combos? I think there might be a -GOE, or not?

R.D. · Feb 10, 2007

And Cop was supposed to PREVENT all this. :rofl:

Tonichelle · Feb 10, 2007

I doubt any judging system they come up with will be able to have 100% of the fans in agreement that it was right, just, and fair.

We skating fans are skeptics

rain · Feb 10, 2007

I had some serious questions about the judging here following the mens and ladies competitions, particularly about whether or not the judges understand the PCS properly. Lysacek being equal to Buttle in PCS for his relatively simple Carmen choreography was one instance. I had another couple in the ladies, first off the Hughes vs. Rochette PCS question, but also the very high PCS for Czisny, who is a lovely skater and on a good day has excellent skills. But this was not a good day, and surely, falling three times in a program has to somehow effect the PCS marks?

I also question the amount of deduction given for repeating jumps without combinations that could have really made a difference in the Rochette-Hughes positioning. It seems that because Hughes did the illegal jumps in the back half of her program, in spite of the violation she still received the bonus for doing jumps after the halfway mark. This meant, along with her getting 80 per cent credit of the base value, that there was little penalty for a blatant violation of the rules. Perhaps this needs to be tweaked so there is more consequence for such violations.

I think Lysacek's big PCS came from his jump content, which is not how the PCS is supposed to work. Buttle should have beaten him soundly on a number of the categories.

I don't know where Hughes' big PCS came from. She was beaten by Rochette in the technical score, and I have to say, she does not have an overall better program or skating skills than Rochette, so it seems a little inexplicable. Was it hometown advantage?

iloveaxel · Feb 10, 2007

Emily

Emily has been notoriously overmarked for how long?

But come on, this is U.S., it's no suprise that Emily got some hometown advantage. Every host country does the same.

I doubt she can sustain that kind of PCS at worlds.

kittycat26 · Feb 10, 2007

There is no explanation. The offensive PC scores alloted to the very undeserving Emily Hughes is another example of the judges willing to give out marks that are not reflective of the standard of certain skaters, insulting the integrity of the sport and offending true fans of the sport who want to see what is fair and right in the true spirit of competition. Emily Hughes is one of the skaters handpicked by the judging community to be anointed into a position not merited through her skating standard and thus will receive scores in certain areas-including PC scores, that are inflated to what her skating alone would merit.

iloveaxel · Feb 10, 2007

kittycat26 said:
There is no explanation. The offensive PC scores alloted to the very undeserving Emily Hughes is another example of the judges willing to give out marks that are not reflective of the standard of certain skaters, insulting the integrity of the sport and offending true fans of the sport who want to see what is fair and right in the true spirit of competition. Emily Hughes is one of the skaters handpicked by the judging community to be anointed into a position not merited through her skating standard and thus will receive scores in certain areas-including PC scores, that are inflated to what her skating alone would merit.

Although we argued on Buttle, I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on Emily. She has been notoriously overmarked for a long long time.

La Rhumba · Feb 10, 2007

gio said:
Is Emily Hughes really better than Joannie at PCS. The commentators at Eurosport expressed their surprise and were skeptic about the judges scores, saying that PCS judging isn't good.

Which comms? Which Nationality? Cos no controversy from Brit comm.

When people say "comms on ES" they need to always state which ones, as there are soooooo many!

attyfan · Feb 10, 2007

I wasn't surprised when Lysacek got higher PCS than Buttlle. It has seemed to me for a long time that the PCS goes up with the tech marks; Kimmie's PCS scores for her last season's program went up or down depending on whether her 3/3s were ratified.

redhotcoach · Feb 10, 2007

I also question the GOE awarding to elements that are not in combination as well. However, I also question the way that judges seem to award +1, 2 3's to the GOE of elements such as spiral sequences held for less than 3 seconds each - technically a reduction of the level; or spins that are not held in the required position long enough to be counted but seem to be awarded + GOE's and high levels.

Take a look at some of the spiral sequences of the skaters and count......Mira Leung is one that has been consistently awarded a Level 4 and positive GOE's on a spiral sequence where just one spiral has been held for the requisite 3 seconds, while the other 4 have been held for less - sometimes less than 2.

kittycat26 · Feb 10, 2007

iloveaxel said:
Although we argued on Buttle, I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on Emily. She has been notoriously overmarked for a long long time.

The reason is a fairy obvious one in her case, atleast for me. My last name is Hughes, my big sis won an Olympics, marketing value possabilities?

redhotcoach · Feb 10, 2007

That bias was supposed to have been fixed by the new CoP system. Under 6.0 the judges were able to 'hold up' their favorite skater. So what's happened? Once again, the perfect system appears to have developed a flaw.

Human nature or nature of the sport?

iloveaxel · Feb 10, 2007

kittycat26 said:
The reason is a fairy obvious one in her case, atleast for me. My last name is Hughes, my big sis won an Olympics, marketing value possabilities?

Exactly. She looks so sloppy to me. I mean I am generally not into 'powerful' skaters. But Joannie is definitely miles ahead of Emily in terms of every aspect of skating.

Joannie's popped two jumps today, but that did not particularly disrupt the flow of the program. She definitely deserved higher PCS than Emily.

figuristka · Feb 10, 2007

I have to agree, i really question Hughes getting better PCS than Rochette, as i did Evan over Buttle´s. I thought overall Rochette should have had the edge even with her mistakes. Meissner was strong in both and deserved winning.

gio · Feb 10, 2007

La Rhumba said:
Which comms? Which Nationality? Cos no controversy from Brit comm.

When people say "comms on ES" they need to always state which ones, as there are soooooo many!

Sorry!!! The Italian comms said this. In particular the former skater Angelo Dolfini.

SeaniBu · Feb 10, 2007

iloveaxel said:
But come on, this is U.S., it's no suprise that Emily got some hometown advantage. Every host country does the same.

That makes me think of Joannie in Skate Canada GP. I saw it as one of her best LPs I had ever seen, but they were the highest marks for a Canadian in Canada. Would the same argument hold true?

Also the "comfort" of skating on "your own turf" does not seem to factor into peoples minds when saying they received higher marks at home. It seems like the judges will always be blamed.

Can we ever trust (my self included) the Judges? :laugh:

La Rhumba · Feb 10, 2007

gio said:
Sorry!!! The Italian comms said this. In particular the former skater Angelo Dolfini.

Ah! I remember Angelo, a very artistic skater, but no jumps! Maybe that's why!

rain · Feb 10, 2007

iloveaxel said:
Joannie's popped two jumps today, but that did not particularly disrupt the flow of the program. She definitely deserved higher PCS than Emily.

We disagree on a lot of things, but I think we've found some common ground here. Popped or jumps turned into doubles don't disrupt the flow of a program, and thus should really have no effect at all on PCS unless (as I have seen occasionally) a skater really reacts to the pop and the shoulders sag and the expression starts to go. Falls, on the other hand, are something else entirely, and something that I think can legitimately have an effect on PCS because they do disrupt the choreography and the flow of the program.

SeaniBu · Feb 10, 2007

rain said:
Popped or jumps turned into doubles don't disrupt the flow of a program,

Popped I think disrupt most definitely, 3s into 2s though I don't think do.

iloveaxel · Feb 10, 2007

SeaniBu said:
That makes me think of Joannie in Skate Canada GP. I saw it as one of her best LPs I had ever seen, but they were the highest marks for a Canadian in Canada. Would the same argument hold true?

Also the "comfort" of skating on "your own turf" does not seem to factor into peoples minds when saying they received higher marks at home. It seems like the judges will always be blamed.

Can we ever trust (my self included) the Judges?

Hometown advantages sometimes are quite obvious, not always. Oda and other two Japanese men posted monstrous scores at NHK even without quad. But Brian beat them hands down even with flawed quads when meeting them later face to face.

It's also no surprise that most Chinese skaters did far better at Winter Asian Games than Japanese.

So I do believe worlds will tilt slightly into Mao Asada's favour. I really like her a lot!!

Hopefully, Japanese fan's enthusiasim of shen&zhao will propell them to a comfortable win there as well.

I guess there are three reasons to this phenomenon: 1) usually skaters do better when in their comfort zone; 2)audiences' big cheers of their own countrymen no doubt have an impact on judges. The accumulation of a slight tickup of 0.5 in every PCS column is huge; 3)judges are human. When they are treated well by host country, they obviously would be very generous/lenient to host country athlets.

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