Judging controversy
- Thread starter gio
- Start date
Reguarding the judging issue I feel that we should consider the root of the problem, the federations. The judges are hand raised and trained through their own system and actively judge at every level in thier own countries. Can we really expect that they are not going to favor their own country men, who they could probably know on some personal level, they may have monitored the skaters for their own federation. I suggest that judges at an international level must no longer be envolved with any federation. They only judge international events and make it a job with pay, which involves responsibiliy and accountability. How do we expect them to judge with no bias if they are exposed mostly to their countries skaters,fellow judges,coaches and association members. I would suggest taking the judging power away from the federations., Lets face it after the competition your on a plane back to your own country and the skating world you have come to know as home!!!!
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
the problem is that even if the judges are paid, there's still the idea that they would then follow the whim of the ISU. Whomever Speedy wants to advance/promote, then those skaters would seemingly have favor with teh judges...
in any sport where it's judged there's no way around the cheating, or the fans being suspicious of cheating
in any sport where it's judged there's no way around the cheating, or the fans being suspicious of cheating
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Stop it -- CoP was already being designed a couple of years before SLC. The secrecy thing started with the interim system, and if CoP hadn't been as developed by 2003, it is likely that the anonymous with random selection interim system would have lasted indefinitely.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Soon we will see Russian/American and Russian/Canadian judges on the panel and you know where there allegiance is.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Very true, but the secrecy thing was intended to keep the public unaware of any collusion which may develop with the interim system, and it was carried through to the CoP with an inkling of who is judging but no way one can point a finger.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
In the planning work that was done on the Code of Points prior to 2002, was anonymus judging and the random draw part of it? Or was that tacked on after Salt Lake City to avoid Le Gougne-like scandals in the future?
And what do the Canadians, with one judge, have to offer as a quid pro quo? There are no top Russian men or ladies to be backed, and the Pairs aren't that good either. The Canadians have a hot #2 team, so a Canadian judge isn't going to want to back DomShabs all the way through the next Olympics.
A deal has to have benefits for both sides. The Russians don't need the Canadian judge to back DomShabs at Worlds this year because they have enough votes sewn up for their own teams.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
What about polygraphs? - main reason I thought to pay them, so you could. I would even say monitor during their judging.
And the 5 Judge, not from fed of skater, drawn at random that day? Russia skates, judge folds arms and watches - Japan skates Russia judges and Japans Judge folds arms and watches. ???
And the 5 Judge, not from fed of skater, drawn at random that day? Russia skates, judge folds arms and watches - Japan skates Russia judges and Japans Judge folds arms and watches. ???
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
As much as I disapprove of cheating judges, yesterday I saw something infinitely scarier--rhythmic gymnastics
In rhythmic gymnastics, your COACH is allowed to be a judge for your federation. Imagine Frank Carroll judging Evan, or Coucher-Zazoui judging for France, and being able not to just judge Dubreuil and Lauzon, but Delobel and Schoenfelder.
There was one girl from Bulgaria, whose own mom was her coach, and at the end of her ball routine, her coach/judge from her federation even blew her a kiss as she waited for her marks.
In rhythmic gymnastics, your COACH is allowed to be a judge for your federation. Imagine Frank Carroll judging Evan, or Coucher-Zazoui judging for France, and being able not to just judge Dubreuil and Lauzon, but Delobel and Schoenfelder.
There was one girl from Bulgaria, whose own mom was her coach, and at the end of her ball routine, her coach/judge from her federation even blew her a kiss as she waited for her marks.
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Probably because the second most important person in ISU is Canadian? Speaking of deals i don't think that any judge can offer more then he can??
And if the Russians don't need the Canadian judge, why they should need any other? And how they are sure there will be a bulgarian judge at the next OG or at WC2009?
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I just can't get into 'deals', but I'll look closely at this Worlds. Close contests this season are (given all skaters/teams are at their best):
Ladies - Japan - Korea
Men - Japan - France
Pairs - China - China
Dance - Russia - France, Bulgaria, Canada.
I'm not putting any country down, just showing what I think are the closest calls. I do believe there can be biased judging based on jealousy or politics, but these come into play with individual judges ONLY if the contest is close.
Joe
Ladies - Japan - Korea
Men - Japan - France
Pairs - China - China
Dance - Russia - France, Bulgaria, Canada.
I'm not putting any country down, just showing what I think are the closest calls. I do believe there can be biased judging based on jealousy or politics, but these come into play with individual judges ONLY if the contest is close.
Joe
Can some one help me, is it the case that all countries know before the event what federation has representation at the competition? Do they know who the judges are going to be that will assigned to that event? Is it that only the general public watching that event that will have no knowledge of what judges are from which country? Also if thier is a conflect reguarding results, the information on who did what will never be public knowledge? It scares me to think this is true and no one is accountable for the intergetity of the sport but our trusted ISU.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
It is known beforehand which national federations will be represented at ISU championships. Here is the list for this year.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-178981-196199-113334-0-file,00.pdf
I think the federations don't submit the actual names of the judges until later.
Once the names of the judges are announced anyone can look them up and see what country they are from. What the general public does not know is which judge gave which mark. The general membership of the ISU is not supposed to know this either (although I suspect that they could find out if they wanted to). These records are kept secret, known only to the ISU Technical Committtee, etc.
There is a very elaborate internal review process. It is triggered if a judge gives marks that are "outside the corridore" established by the majority of the judges on the panel. In principle judges can by censured or suspended for "bias and breaches of ethics" if these hearings warrant it. I don't know if this ever happens or not.
Here is the ISU document about this. As far as I know the results of these hearings are never made public.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168605-185823-91843-0-file,00.pdf
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Oh so why is it not important to US and to Russia?
Yes of course all teams have those qualities but I think the Russians a lot of time actually are a little better than many other teams in those qualities.
Ok I´m so tired of this thing agains Russia, according to my little calcualtion on the pcs on page 8 or 9, one judge was more biased than the others and that was the US judge. End of my participation in this thread
/Lena
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I don't know nothing about "deals", I just have an irrational feeling that everything will be done to get Kimmie and Evan on the Worlds podium. Belbin & Agosto will be (most probably) sacrificed. Pairs are obviously USA's lost cause, at least this year.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The United States has trouble inviting winners to lunch at the White House. The Government doesn't give a hoot about figure skating.Oh so why is it not important to US and to Russia?
Yes of course all teams have those qualities but I think the Russians a lot of time actually are a little better than many other teams in those qualities.
Ok I´m so tired of this thing agains Russia, according to my little calcualtion on the pcs on page 8 or 9, one judge was more biased than the others and that was the US judge. End of my participation in this thread
/Lena
Of course, the Russians are always better. Griazev will beat Talkehashi, Joubert, Oda, Weir and Lysacek at worlds. Am I correct?
Most judges are biased for their own. Russian judges outnumber other national judges. Russian judges (and I use the plural) will only take care of Dance this Worlds, but if the Oly team returns they may do well in the future, but present standards in all the divisions are not favorable to Russians.
And I believe most fans like the best competitor to win regardless of nationality
Joe.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
What can be everything for the USA do to get Kimmie and Evan on the podium?
The two of them are very good skaters. Why not do it legitimately? If they lose, so what?
I can't believe the Russian coach would allow his top Dance team (B&A) to be sacrificed. But then if I had irrational feelings, maybe.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
Condalisa Kwan?
I agree to an existent. There are bigger things to be addressed right now in particular. But no one will forget where Michelle came from.
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