Emily Hughes - What Do You Think?

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 19, 2007

Mathman said:
Joe, I don't think that "opinion" has to refer just to silly things like whether or not we like Julia Sebestyen's new hair-do. (Yes! )

For instance, to use your example, the board has had many robust discussions of flutzing. The facts are not in dispute. Everyone knows what the definition of a Lutz jump is. But there can still be a range of well-reasoned opinions about how the CoP should penalize skaters when they do not perform the element correctly. Some sample opinions:

1. A Lutz is a Lutz, a flip is a flip. If the tech specialist says, "flip," that's the end of the discussion and the skater gets 0 points for the attempt if it is a Zayak violation.

2. The tech specialist calls, "wrong edge!" The skater gets credit for the element but there is a mandatory deduction, like a fall deduction, taken off the score at the end.

3. Each judge makes his or her own determination as to the severity of the infraction, ranging from -3 GOE for an egregrious flutz to -1 GOE for a "flatz" or a slight bobble onto the wrong edge at the last second. (A -3 GOE reduces the value of the jump from 6.0 to 3.0.)

4. Judges should be allowed to balance an improper take-off against excellence in other aspects of the jump, such as air position, full rotation and good flow out of the landing, possibly resulting in a 0 GOE overall despite the bad take-off edge.

It's like a court of law. The criminal is guilty. That's fact. But what should the punishment be? People have a difference of opinion. No one is a better or a worse figure skating fan because of it.

My point in objecting to Red Dog's statement that GS is ALL about opinions was that he was wrong. Nothing wrong with opinions as I have said throughout this diatribe and which I thought should have been put in a separate folder.

This is what I believe GS is ALL about:

Welcome to Golden Skate!
Your Online Figure Skating Resource
The mission of Golden Skate™ is to provide visitors with the largest variety of figure skating resources possible. Golden Skate's objective is to continue to supply the worldwide online figure skating community with links to news, periodic articles, competition results, and other related information.

The post about Kwan was a joke from the past. Nothing serious. Some posters can make jokes about skaters but have trouble with jokes at their expense.. I should have known.

However the discussion really centered on the misperceived notion that I was mainly talking about posters who have had prior experience in figure skating - actual skating or learned and those who opine on their view only. That thinking was totally wrong. I never objected to those who opine especially since I do enough of it.

The only matter which I brought up was that I tried to defend GS which was perceived as a forum of opinions ONLY. Was that so wrong?

Joe

Mathman · Feb 19, 2007

Joesitz said:
The mission of Golden Skate™ is to provide visitors with the largest variety of figure skating resources possible. Golden Skate's objective is to continue to supply the worldwide online figure skating community with links to news, periodic articles, competition results, and other related information.

Well, this thread has certainly taken some twists and turns -- I wonder if Emily is reading it?

Anyway, about the mission of Golden Skate....I use Google and other search engins to look up a lot of stuff on skaters and skating. I have noticed recently that whatever the topic I am searching for, articles from Golden Skate and its archives are usually among the first few entries listed. So, hooray for Paula and hooray for us!

PS. Don't forget to submit your questions for the Chris Mabee interview.

(OK, I guess I have taken this thread as far off topic as possible, LOL. Go Emily! :yes: )

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 19, 2007

Thanks MM for understanding about the GS Mission which goes beyond opinions. I find many posts about figure skating on GS quite rewarding.

About Emily. She was wonderful in 4CC. Just my opinion.

Joe

chuckm · Feb 19, 2007

Emily wonderful in 4CC? She left out her two main combinations and threw away a bunch of points, yet was thrilled with herself for skating 'clean'! If she skates that way at Worlds, she will finish in the bottom of the top 10.

She also looked thoroughly annoyed that she'd finished 2nd behind Kimmie (again).

Sylvia · Feb 19, 2007

chuckm said:
She [Emily] left out her two main combinations and threw away a bunch of points, yet was thrilled with herself for skating 'clean'!

Skating is a process, and all skaters want to improve as the season goes along and build momentum. Hughes landed 6 triples for the first time this season, while setting a personal best overall score and FS score at 4CC -- no reason why she shouldn't be "thrilled" by what she accomplished there.

R.D. · Feb 19, 2007

I thought in terms of improvement that Emily did great. Remember: she didn't fall! That's definitely a step in the right direction. Whether she was happy or not with 2nd place behind Kimmie, well I'm sure she knew she did the best she could and it wasn't good enough to win. Nevertheless she needs to be proud of herself and keep on improving. I definitely think she will stay in the Worlds Top Ten.

R.D. · Feb 19, 2007

My point in objecting to Red Dog's statement that GS is ALL about opinions was that he was wrong.

you're taking what I meant by those words and twisting it...(not the first time, either)

Since I may not have been clear though here it is again...the quote that I was responding to- originally by jsteam4501s:

It kind of annoys me that those of you who criticize Kimmie say that she "doesn't feel the music" or appears to be "counting off the elements one by one", but you EXUSE Emily from being graceful and expressive by emphasizing her "enthusiasm" and her "spirit". In other words, in your eyes Kimmie has to be graceful , Emily doesn't.

Then I opened my response with this...what got folks up in arms:

Remember, it's all opinion. One right doesn't make the other wrong.

In other words, the THOUGHTS that people share are all opinions. Kimmie being graceful or Emily being enthusiastic is an OPINION shared by the poster (and maybe other folks that agree) and not a concrete fact. I'm not sure how it got into what Golden Skate as a whole is all about...there are concrete facts (like point values for elements, statistics and results, etc.) and then there are interpretations of the facts, which are, for lack of a clearer word, opinions. My impression is that GS, like all other skating forums, is a place for skating fans to come together and inform, discuss, debate and learn from each other. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this...

Kwanford Wife · Feb 19, 2007

soogar said:
It seems to me that the biggest detractors of Emily are the same people who rush to sing Michelle's praises. Some of the venom directed toward Emily seems to be in part due to Sarah's upset win over Michelle Kwan. JMO

:banging:
Ya know... as an uber, these are the statements that drive me personally crazy... its the non-kwan fans that start this nonsense... Kwan lost in 2002. So? She's still the greatest of all time... :bow:

I disliked Sarah's skating because it was boring. Not because of the upset victory. Hey, its a sport. Stay vertical & you win. I have no problem with that... The non-Kwan fans need to let it go...

Emily is an awesome skater and sooo much better than her sister. She's more Irina than Kwan and that's hot. America hasn't had a power skater since Tonya and I'm glad we've finally gotten one.

But I guess if its necessary to keep picking fights about an event that happended over four years ago - have at it... but just for the record, please recognize that those who dislike Emily's skating run across fandom lines & I doubt it has much to do with the '02 games... but that's just me.

R.D. · Feb 19, 2007

please recognize that those who dislike Emily's skating run across fandom lines & I doubt it has much to do with the '02 games... but that's just me.

...which is the same exact point I'm making, and I can recognize that as a non-fan.

chuckm · Feb 19, 2007

Red Dog said:
I thought in terms of improvement that Emily did great. Remember: she didn't fall! That's definitely a step in the right direction. Whether she was happy or not with 2nd place behind Kimmie, well I'm sure she knew she did the best she could and it wasn't good enough to win. Nevertheless she needs to be proud of herself and keep on improving. I definitely think she will stay in the Worlds Top Ten.

You're right, she didn't fall, but that may have been because she left out two major combinations. I've always thought that Emily dissipated far too much energy at the beginning of her FS so that 2/3 of the way through, she began to tire, and that's when she'd fall or start doubling or popping jumps. So I don't see it as an improvement that she had no falls when major parts of the program were omitted. I see it more as a sign that she needs to tone down the enthusiasm and concentrate on getting the job done. There's plenty of time for the ta-das and wowees when the program is over.

I think Emily will finish in the top 10, even if she falls or makes mistakes. But if she wants to make the podium or win, she won't get there by leaving out high-value elements.

R.D. · Feb 19, 2007

I see it more as a sign that she needs to tone down the enthusiasm and concentrate on getting the job done. There's plenty of time for the ta-das and wowees when the program is over.

Maybe the enthusiasm is not necessarily "choreographed" but it's just her skating STYLE?

BTW, I actually see LESS "enthusiasm" in her skating this year than last year. I think she needs a faster, more powerful piece of music to suit her style. A slow song makes her seem "heavy" out there since she's not exactly the "graceful" type (IMO!!). I almost think of Slutskaya out there but without the powerful jumps.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 19, 2007

chuckm said:
Emily wonderful in 4CC? She left out her two main combinations and threw away a bunch of points, yet was thrilled with herself for skating 'clean'! If she skates that way at Worlds, she will finish in the bottom of the top 10.

She also looked thoroughly annoyed that she'd finished 2nd behind Kimmie (again).

emily did a workman like job. I think she wanted to win being that she was in 2nd
place and used some strategy which unfortunately, didn't work overall. But you are correct her choreography is not the original Wilson's.

On to Tokyo and with a powerhouse of competition.

Joe

antmanb · Feb 19, 2007

Kwanford Wife said:
:banging:
Ya know... as an uber, these are the statements that drive me personally crazy... its the non-kwan fans that start this nonsense... Kwan lost in 2002. So? She's still the greatest of all time... I disliked Sarah's skating because it was boring. Not because of the upset victory. Hey, its a sport. Stay vertical & you win. I have no problem with that... The non-Kwan fans need to let it go...

Emily is an awesome skater and sooo much better than her sister. She's more Irina than Kwan and that's hot. America hasn't had a power skater since Tonya and I'm glad we've finally gotten one.

But I guess if its necessary to keep picking fights about an event that happended over four years ago - have at it... but just for the record, please recognize that those who dislike Emily's skating run across fandom lines & I doubt it has much to do with the '02 games... but that's just me.

I couldn't agree more!

:bow:

kwanford wife :bow:

kwan

Ant

antmanb · Feb 19, 2007

chuckm said:
I think Emily will finish in the top 10, even if she falls or makes mistakes. But if she wants to make the podium or win, she won't get there by leaving out high-value elements.

You mean the, what is it, 1.5 points for a double toe?

Ant

chuckm · Feb 19, 2007

antmanb said:
You mean the, what is it, 1.5 points for a double toe?

Ant

Emily missed the 3f2t and 3z2t2l and besides that took a 20% hit on the repeated 3Z and 3F.

So that's two 2Ts at 1.3 points each, plus 1.5 points for the 2L, plus 1.21 points off the triple flip and 1.32 points off the triple lutz.

All in all, she lost 6.63 points by not doing those combinations. She probably also lost a few points in the Skating Skills component for having only one combo in the FS, and that the easiest one of all, 3T2T.

To put it in persepective, Kimmie scored 61.10 TES points, Emily only 54.73. Add back the missed elements, and Emily winds up with 61.36 points, beating Kimmie on TES.

jsteam4501s · Feb 20, 2007

Of course you are right, Red Dog. I, for one, do not find Kimmie boring at all, but that is my opinion. Maybe at age 65, it takes something reeeeeeely boring to bore me :rofl:

But seriously, I remember many years ago hearing Carol Heiss saying something about "going down the ice and doing a triple, and coming back the other way and doing a triple, and so on......" This to me is describing what Emily does. But I see Kimmie filling up every moment on the ice with shifts and turns and nuances and softness here and dynamics there........always some different part of Kimmie's body moving, shifting, swooping, hopping.........

I have the same problem with Katy Taylor as with Emily. I had high hopes for Katy, but did you notice her free skate at Nationals? "Going up the ice and doing a triple......coming back the other way (in a large figure 8 pattern) and doing a triple........ In other words, her choreography between jumps has shrunk down to almost nothing. Emily's program is not quite THAT bereft of activity, but.............

Red Dog, communicating with the audience CAN sometimes help a choreographically weak program look better to the audience, but it isn't helping Emily in international competition, where the judges are mostly watching the pure skating skills, not the personality. Kimmie is excelling in exhibiting the pure skating skills, which is not boring to me - never mind that she sometimes does not get the wild ovations that Emily does. JMO :biggrin:

jsteam4501s · Feb 20, 2007

Have you ever watched a snail race? Now THAT'S exciting :rofl:

antmanb · Feb 20, 2007

chuckm said:
Emily missed the 3f2t and 3z2t2l and besides that took a 20% hit on the repeated 3Z and 3F.

So that's two 2Ts at 1.3 points each, plus 1.5 points for the 2L, plus 1.21 points off the triple flip and 1.32 points off the triple lutz.

All in all, she lost 6.63 points by not doing those combinations. She probably also lost a few points in the Skating Skills component for having only one combo in the FS, and that the easiest one of all, 3T2T.

To put it in persepective, Kimmie scored 61.10 TES points, Emily only 54.73. Add back the missed elements, and Emily winds up with 61.36 points, beating Kimmie on TES.

Put how does that stack up against maybe falling attempting the combinations that she left out? If she fell on both she'd be 2 full points down plus two lots of -3 GOE, plus two jarring falls would affect the PCS more than only doing one combination, which i'm not sure does affect the PCS.

I think its swings and roundabouts on the point advantages. I think it is good for her to skate a clean program with no popped jumps and no falls. And she won the silver medal. Why people seem to begrudge her her success is beyond me.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 20, 2007

A triple up the arena and another down the arena

Hi jstream4501 - Nice to hear from those who remember Heiss (like me). We are ageless when it comes to figure skating. We remember the suspended axel in the air of yesterday and now the quads. the whole gammit!

Back to emily - She changed a beautiful routine that Wilson gave her with all the connecting steps into jumps. She had trouble with that. So we now get a Liashenko type of performance to ensure the jumps would be landed correcly. She'll get the points according to CoP for those jumps. But the PCS, imo, has gone down substantially.

Joe

chuckm · Feb 20, 2007

Emily also tends to have wonky landings on her jumps. When she had choreography going into them, the ISU judges may have been willing to overlook the landing on the wrong edge. Emily had a couple of wonky jumps at US Nationals, and the USFS judges gave her +GOE for them, which made no sense to me.

I truly believe the USFS would prefer to have Emily as US Champion than Kimmie, because they could play up the Sarah-and-Emily story. And Emily is more exuberant in interviews than Kimmie, who can come across as rather bland.

But--Kimmie will be around in the coming years, while Emily keeps talking about Harvard.

Emily Hughes - What Do You Think?

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

Sylvia

R.D.

R.D.

Kwanford Wife

R.D.

chuckm

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

antmanb

chuckm

jsteam4501s

jsteam4501s

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

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